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  1. #91

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    As others have mentioned, the only "change" should be reverting the island back to its original Missouri frontier glory, by reproducing the fort complete with rifles in the block houses, the escape tunnel, and a snack bar selling dill pickles and beef jerky. All references to the outlandishly-misplaced pirates should be scrubbed into oblivion. Teeter-totter rock and the merry-go-round rocks should be returned.

    Oh, and while we're at it, lets get that silly stage removed, and get that part of the island back to its original state with the working grist mill. This, of course, would require the removal of Fantascrap!, another move which would be in the right direction for this area of the park. Las Vegas shows don't belong in DL.
    This^ 100%!!!

  2. #92

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    I really don't see this happening. The Island is always busy and well loved as is. If it isn't broke don't fix it
    Dave

  3. #93

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by explodingboy View Post
    It's not about keeping everything how it was in 1955. It's about not having things ruined by sub-par themes (lipstick on a pig, so to speak) and cheap movie tie-ins.
    Quote Originally Posted by explodingboy View Post
    You have to understand, some people on this board have seen the rise and fall of the "imagination" of the park. Just like you have your mental image of Disneyland - they have theirs. Hell, it bothers me that everything is a movie tie in or cheap marketing attempt and I'm a 90's baby. I can only imagine how people who actually frequented the park in the 50's, 60's, and even 70's feel.

    Like I mentioned before, I think Fantasmic! has run it's course and I wouldn't be super bummed if it was taken out for a while. I enjoyed it growing up, but as I've gotten older it's become a little less appealing.
    This. My earliest memories of DL was the late 60s - early 70s. Believe me you will never understand the imagination permeating throught the park if you never were able to experience it. The feeling of escaping to the American Frontier of the 1800s was palpable, almost to the point of actually believing you were there - and isnt that what Disneyland is all about? It's not about keeping everything the way it was in 1955, it's about returning the wonder and imagination back to an area of the park that has been sorely missing it since it was replaced by a Las Vegas style show (to borrow from SDG). It's all about leaving today and entering the world of yesterday, fantasy, and tomorrow.

  4. #94

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    As a kid I actually did feel like we were in a national park or some remote wilderness when riding through Nature's Wonderland. We realized, of course, that all the animatronic animals were fake, but it was still a big adventure for a kid. So different from the bland Orange suburb we lived at, just a few miles away. And we knew Tom Sawyer Island had been designed and built as entertainment, but exploring it was still a great adventure, just as if it was "real." As kids we just take it and run with it, enjoy it without really analyzing it.

  5. #95

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    This. My earliest memories of DL was the late 60s - early 70s. Believe me you will never understand the imagination permeating throught the park if you never were able to experience it. The feeling of escaping to the American Frontier of the 1800s was palpable, almost to the point of actually believing you were there - and isnt that what Disneyland is all about? It's not about keeping everything the way it was in 1955, it's about returning the wonder and imagination back to an area of the park that has been sorely missing it since it was replaced by a Las Vegas style show (to borrow from SDG). It's all about leaving today and entering the world of yesterday, fantasy, and tomorrow.
    Hit the nail on the head!

  6. #96

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Disney seems to think they require a movie tie-in, to get the kids interested. "It's Carsland! I like Cars, so I want to go there." Thus the kid will convince the parents to fork over the money to go see it. That wasn't necessary in the early Disneyland because the attractions and lands were good enough on their own to attract paying guests. Nothing really wrong with having a movie tie-in, but if you depend on that tie-in to get the crowds there, then you're not doing very good Imagineering. The land or attraction should be good enough to attract guests on its own merits, regardless of any movie tie-in.

  7. #97

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Except that in Fantasyland every dark ride on opening day had a movie tie in.

  8. #98

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by bigwavedave View Post
    I really don't see this happening. The Island is always busy and well loved as is. If it isn't broke don't fix it
    Ahh, but that's part of the problem - It isn't "broke" per se, but it's worn out and falling apart around the edges and needs a lot of fixing, like everything does eventually - and everybody keeps changing it while they're fixing.

    They used the Pirates Overlay as an excuse to do a lot of upgrades, that is polluting the original idea and impetus behind the island. But unfortunately that's the only way to get that kind of money budgeted for the work, the Marketing folks have to get "something New and Exciting!" to put in the ads and draw people in.

    Fort Wilderness is essentially totally Broken - it's rotten to the point they can't let guests in there anymore for safety reasons, so they bolted the gates and blocked off the escape tunnel. It's a storage yard for Fantasmic! stuff. That has to get changed, it needs to be torn down and rebuilt properly, and upgraded to more closely follow the Theme. It doesn't have to be totally timber framed straight from 1750, it just has to look like it is - and to more than just casual scrutiny. Just use treated lumber and hide the steel where you have to use it above ground. (Backstage doesn't count.)

    Make a proper Basement where it meets the secret tunnel, the restaurant can use the prep space and Cast restrooms. Upgrade the food service from just pickles and root beer. They can have Big Thunder BBQ or Hungry Bear be their prep kitchen, and have a little grill to heat and serve BBQ and perhaps a Broaster for Fried Chicken, Cold Sandwiches, salads and Slaw. Picnic food.

    Add a small Elevator for HCA access to one Fort turret, the Parapet level, Ground floor, B1 with the "escape tunnel" to make ADA happy, and B2 (restricted access) for the Service Tunnel. And finally break down and add that Tunnel to the mainland as Backstage and emergency access to the island, land it in the fort basement and behind Hungry Bear.

    Next time the river is drained for maintenance it's easy to dig a ~180' - 200' trench below the Twain Twack pour cement for a bed and drop in precast concrete tunnel segments, more cement for a cap, Done in a few weeks. You can dawdle doing the elevator and stairs at the Hungry Bear end until after the river is refilled.

    Then they can whisk a Wheelchair or Gurney on and off the island quickly and quietly, and supply the restaurant without wheeling a cart onto a raft. And they can eliminate the raft drivers shuttling the Fantasmic! cast and techs back and forth after the Island closes for the day.

    Gee, when was the last time they drained the River? It's been 10 years or more, hasn't it? Start planning it now, so you're ready.

    The Commander's Office scene at the fort needs to be re-thought, IMHO it was stuck there to fill the space and always had an inch of dust on everything - Now if that was a smaller and actual working office you were peeking into the window of they would have a reason to keep it properly clean and buffed up. And to add to the realism the Commander and a Sergeant or two need to be there in uniform (DL Security CM) and working the island in character too...

    --<< Bruce >>--
    There's No Place Like 127.0.0.1

  9. #99

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    Except that in Fantasyland every dark ride on opening day had a movie tie in.
    I'm going to help you out a little bit here bud. Keep in mind, he is referring to present day Disneyland, not Disneyland in 55.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Weaver View Post
    Disney seems to think they require a movie tie-in, to get the kids interested. "It's Carsland! I like Cars, so I want to go there." Thus the kid will convince the parents to fork over the money to go see it. That wasn't necessary in the early Disneyland because the attractions and lands were good enough on their own to attract paying guests. Nothing really wrong with having a movie tie-in, but if you depend on that tie-in to get the crowds there, then you're not doing very good Imagineering. The land or attraction should be good enough to attract guests on its own merits, regardless of any movie tie-in.
    Last edited by explodingboy; 09-04-2012 at 10:50 AM.

  10. #100

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Disneyland used to appeal to the sophistocated; the high-brow. You could see it in their advertising even. Learned thinkers would expound on the park as though discussing fine art. Books and essays were written.

    You would never see such a discourse on Magic Mountain or Busch Gardens. No essays on cultural importance; no books or theses or museum exhibits. These parks were simply amusemnt places, like the piers of old (and sadly which Disney attempted to emulate in DCA). You don't see much intellectual discussion of the Park today as you did before. In previous days, the place was considered almost high art; something far beyond the simple amusement parks of the day.

    As we sit here discussing the merits of this show or that, of the changes that have occured over the years, I would ask those glorifying recent changes to try and look back and see what they've lost in the process, if they can.This isn't about certain people wistful or nostalgiac for the past; it's about knoweldgeable people longing for the intellecualism that used to accompany them to this place of pleasure.

    I've tried to stay out of this post, but this was too good to address. Aside from being extremely condescending to almost everyone in this thread that doesn't agree with you, it completely detracts from the conversation. Being of a certain age or from a certain generation does not automatically bestow some odd, pseudo-authority over people and what they choose to think.

    From Derailing for Dummies (Derailing for Dummies)

    You're Interrogating From The Wrong Perspective

    "You see, in this one you get to insult their intelligence and perceptiveness but in a very subtle and underhanded way! This one is very useful in discussions about literature and other media or academia."

    You’re Not Being Intellectual Enough

    Even though the conversation taking place is reflective of or about real life circumstances and situations for human beings, you must be careful to first insist on placing it within an academic framework. If the Marginalised Person™ involved is speaking in vernacular and placing too much emphasis on Lived Experience©, you must swiftly impress that you cannot consider it a proper "debate" unless theory and philosophy play a key component, complete with big words normally not found outside of academic papers. This is another way of pressing home your own privilege by demanding the conversation take place on terms the Marginalised Person™ may not be intimate with. After all, academia has little to do with reality, but pretending that it does is sure to undermine your opponent.




    Last edited by brenden; 09-04-2012 at 11:26 AM.

  11. #101

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by explodingboy View Post
    I'm going to help you out a little bit here bud. Keep in mind, he is referring to present day Disneyland, not Disneyland in 55.
    He is?


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Weaver View Post
    Disney seems to think they require a movie tie-in, to get the kids interested. "It's Carsland! I like Cars, so I want to go there." Thus the kid will convince the parents to fork over the money to go see it. That wasn't necessary in the early Disneyland because the attractions and lands were good enough on their own to attract paying guests. Nothing really wrong with having a movie tie-in, but if you depend on that tie-in to get the crowds there, then you're not doing very good Imagineering. The land or attraction should be good enough to attract guests on its own merits, regardless of any movie tie-in.
    It's ok; I think I knew exactly what he meant, thanks though.

    Granted, it seams that everything needs a tie-in at this point, but that does not absolve the history that Disneyland was not built on an original theme, free from the evil corporate tie in that people seam to hate so very much.

  12. #102

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    Except that in Fantasyland every dark ride on opening day had a movie tie in.
    You are absolutely right. Movie tie-ins on opening existed within Fantaslyand. But they were in Fantasyland and nowhere else only.

    Sure, there was a subtle reference to Davy Crockett in Fronteirland, but the Davy Crockett figure was also an historical reference just as much as it was a popular TV franchise of the day. And perhaps even more importantly, Davy Crockett was not meant to push merchandise sales but rather to enhance the theming of the land. And yes, Tom Sawyer is a fictional character but it wasn't a Disney character. And he was from a novel many years before even Walt's day. So this removal from Disney allowed guests to explore the island on their own terms, without any Disney reference to confuse it.

    Yes, Disney's characters did exist in the land of Fantasy and that's where they stayed.

    How about that? Historical figures in Frontierland, and the opportunity to escape there using a neutral fictional character (or motif) as a catalyst to do so. And Disney cartoon characters in Fantasyland, which was specifically designed to take you to a world of Fantasy as defined by Disney itself. And the world of tomorrow which by definition also uses fantasy to take you there (science fiction is a sub-genre of fantasy) only this time devoid of any Disney character reference so that you can go to that future world on your own terms without any Disney movie reference to limit you.

  13. #103

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    He is?
    It's clear that he was talking about present day Disneyland due to the fact that his post sums up what's wrong with the park today.

    It's ok; I think I knew exactly what he meant, thanks though.

    Granted, it seams that everything needs a tie-in at this point, but that does not absolve the history that Disneyland was not built on an original theme, free from the evil corporate tie in that people seam to hate so very much.
    I could have highlighted his whole post, because it was that good. It sums up exactly what's wrong. Just because he mentioned early Disneyland doesn't mean that is what his whole post was about. No one said that the park didn't ever have tie-ins and references, either. Of course it did. It's a great business model, and it would be silly not to. The issue that is at hand is that they are depending on these tie-ins to get people in the park, which isn't how it was done before.

  14. #104

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by brenden View Post
    Being of a certain age or from a certain generation does not automatically bestow some odd, pseudo-authority over people and what they choose to think.
    No, but it does give people from certain ages or generations the experience, and therefore the perspective, that is factually impossible for other people from younger generations to possess.

  15. #105

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    Re: Tom Sawyer Island - Time for a Change

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    You are absolutely right. Movie tie-ins on opening existed within Fantaslyand. But they were in Fantasyland and nowhere else only.

    Sure, there was a subtle reference to Davy Crockett in Fronteirland, but the Davy Crockett figure was also an historical reference just as much as it was a popular TV franchise of the day. And perhaps even more importantly, Davy Crockett was not meant to push merchandise sales but rather to enhance the theming of the land. And yes, Tom Sawyer is a fictional character but it wasn't a Disney character. And he was from a novel many years before even Walt's day. So this removal from Disney allowed guests to explore the island on their own terms, without any Disney reference to confuse it.

    Yes, Disney's characters did exist in the land of Fantasy and that's where they stayed.

    How about that? Historical figures in Frontierland, and the opportunity to escape there using a neutral fictional character (or motif) as a catalyst to do so. And Disney cartoon characters in Fantasyland, which was specifically designed to take you to a world of Fantasy as defined by Disney itself. And the world of tomorrow which by definition also uses fantasy to take you there (science fiction is a sub-genre of fantasy) only this time devoid of any Disney character reference so that you can go to that future world on your own terms without any Disney movie reference to limit you.

    Point taken, but I think it could be fair to say that the Disney Company was still in it's infancy and really did not have much Tie-in material to work with. For example, The Swiss Family Treehouse opened as a tie-in for the Movie in 1962, nothing more than Carland in a tree for the time I'd expect.

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