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  1. #46

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    things change over time. There are plenty of "can't do that now" stories I can tell. I can't say that everything we used to do was "safe" but we all managed without lawsuits and accidents.
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  2. #47

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    So why don't you tell us what's unsafe about the current safety position on the trains, with its two handrails and large non-slip standing surface?
    Right, a handrail is nice and slippery when it rains. A foot can slip. The train is traveling and not smoothly. The wind is blowing. Are the conductors wearing glasses or goggle to protect their eyes? Stuff can fly into their eyes.

    What about the Training about common sense like keeping both hands on the rails at all times? However, their jobs might force them to not keep both hands on the rails because they must turn their heads to make sure no one is on the tracks.

    If a hazard can be on the other side of the train, can they see it? No, because they are only on one side with both hands on the rail. They can certainly leave their post, then what is the point?

    I don't see any outside conductors for the high speed rails. Why not? Shouldn't the conductor be capable of running along side the trains like Superman? At Disneyland, I suppose they do all sorts of things like this.

    It seems like they should have more CMs at the stations for safety reasons and not rely on the conductors on the moving trains. Leaving a moving train is inherently unsafe. To beat a train and then save a guest is a bad safety policy.
    Last edited by StevenW; 09-13-2012 at 02:49 PM.

  3. #48

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    My issue with pre-emptive bubble-wrapping is that it doesn't always seem to be reasonable to expect that accident to happen. The incident at the Carousel of Progress: who would have thought someone would get caught there? Since it happened, now they put in breakaway walls. Slowing down the teacups- didn't the guy who fell out recognize that it was his own fault? Nobody using the ride in its normal configuration has that problem, but now that they're slow, they're less fun.

    Didn't look at the handrails on Alice, but that also seems unnecessary. I know OSHA demanded it, but I still think it's maybe a bit much.

    Some things can be predicted: lap bars on roller coasters, seat belts on Indy, etc. Others; not so much. I wish there were fewer lawsuits, that people would take responsibility for their own actions, and that safety things were somehow better targeted.
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  4. #49

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    Right, a handrail is nice and slippery when it rains. A foot can slip. The train is traveling and not smoothly. The wind is blowing. Are the conductors wearing glasses or goggle to protect their eyes? Stuff can fly into their eyes.

    What about the Training about common sense like keeping both hands on the rails at all times? However, their jobs might force them to not keep both hands on the rails because they must turn their heads to make sure no one is on the tracks.

    If a hazard can be on the other side of the train, can they see it? No, because they are only on one side with both hands on the rail. They can certainly leave their post, then what is the point?

    I don't see any outside conductors for the high speed rails. Why not? Shouldn't the conductor be capable of running along side the trains like Superman? At Disneyland, I suppose they do all sorts of things like this.

    It seems like they should have more CMs at the stations for safety reasons and not rely on the conductors on the moving training. Leaving a moving training is inherently unsafe. To beat a train and then save a guest is a bad safety policy.
    So, for over fifty years with no major incidents the Railroad is suddenly death defyingly dangerous?
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  5. #50

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    Right, a handrail is nice and slippery when it rains. A foot can slip. The train is traveling and not smoothly. The wind is blowing. Are the conductors wearing glasses or goggle to protect their eyes? Stuff can fly into their eyes.
    You've got to be kidding me.

    You write like you have a lot of experience with railroads, and know all about how to safely operate one.

    It's obvious you don't.

    I wonder how people with no experience whatsoever in a particular disciplince are able to write so authoritatively about such subjects? I guess I should ask the same question of the Disneyland "Safety Patrol."
    Last edited by Steve DeGaetano; 09-13-2012 at 04:02 PM.

  6. #51

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneymike View Post
    Not sure about what kind of damages Disney could recover, maybe a ban from the parks for a certain time period? Maybe if it got out that Disney would do something like that people might think a little bit when visiting the parks?
    There has to be a reason for Disney to recover damages. There has to be some kind of harm that the damages are compensating for. That is why I said that unless the accident damaged some kind of Disney property, there really is no cause of action for Disney against the guest. There may be a cause of action against Disney, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Disneymike View Post
    It just seems like some people are too dense to actually watch their kids when getting on a Jungle Cruise boat or something as easy as that.
    Even if you watch your kids 24/7, there is no guarantee that the kid would not have slipped anyway. That's why it is called an accident. It just happens. Disney is being responsible and modifying the dock so that it can't happen again.

    Quote Originally Posted by alphabassetgrrl View Post
    Didn't look at the handrails on Alice, but that also seems unnecessary. I know OSHA demanded it, but I still think it's maybe a bit much.
    Except that Disney employees have also stated how much safer they feel even with the temporary railings. Apparently it gets slippery on the vine when they have to walk the track. And that is coming from experienced workers. Imagine if they had to evac patrons from there one day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneymike View Post
    So, for over fifty years with no major incidents the Railroad is suddenly death defyingly dangerous?
    The Columbia was operating safely for 40 years before its incident. Time without an incident is not proof that something is safe. It is only proof that something hasn't happened yet, not that it never will.
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  7. #52

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    So why don't you tell us what's unsafe about the current safety position on the trains, with its two handrails and large non-slip standing surface?
    I was not talking about the railroad, but in general terms. No clue if it's safe or not, that is for Disney to decide, not me.

  8. #53

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneymike View Post
    And for crying out loud, who would actually let their kids do this:

    "Jason looked but almost couldn't believe what he saw: a little girl lying on the station platform near the track, her eyes turned away from the approaching train, and her head resting on the rail! The girls befuddled parents didn't the harm of allowing their daughter to put her ear on the rail in order to listen for the approaching train!"
    The same kind of parent who would let their kid do this:

    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelWalrus View Post
    Once, when I was sitting near the Toontown fountain, I saw two children jump in and start playing. When the oblivious moter finally noticed, she took out her video camera and started filming. A cast member quickly came out and said something a long the lines of "Ma'am, that water is filthy." trying to get the woman to control her kids. The mother then shrugged off that cast members advising and let her kids continue playing.
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  9. #54

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneymike View Post
    Anybody else think that if an accident occurs at the Park and it is found to be the guests fault that Disney should sue them? I do, maybe then people won't be so careless and pay attention. IMO, the attention span of a lot people nowadays is zilch. There was never the need for all the safety crud back when because people paid attention.
    Well said. People seem to not care and always want to go against the rules. Rules that are designed to keep them safe.

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    things change over time. There are plenty of "can't do that now" stories I can tell. I can't say that everything we used to do was "safe" but we all managed without lawsuits and accidents.
    Like I said, we have an extremely sue-happy society.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    Right, a handrail is nice and slippery when it rains. A foot can slip. The train is traveling and not smoothly. The wind is blowing. Are the conductors wearing glasses or goggle to protect their eyes? Stuff can fly into their eyes.

    What about the Training about common sense like keeping both hands on the rails at all times? However, their jobs might force them to not keep both hands on the rails because they must turn their heads to make sure no one is on the tracks.

    If a hazard can be on the other side of the train, can they see it? No, because they are only on one side with both hands on the rail. They can certainly leave their post, then what is the point?

    I don't see any outside conductors for the high speed rails. Why not? Shouldn't the conductor be capable of running along side the trains like Superman? At Disneyland, I suppose they do all sorts of things like this.

    It seems like they should have more CMs at the stations for safety reasons and not rely on the conductors on the moving trains. Leaving a moving train is inherently unsafe. To beat a train and then save a guest is a bad safety policy.
    Are you serious? Stuff blowing in their eyes? How silly to say something like that. Most people would just brush out whatever it is, not whine and complain and demand to be compensated.

    And for high speed rails, there are still conductors. And they are inside the train, because high speed rails are ENCLOSED. The DRR has open air cars, with no doors that shut when people board the train. The conductor stands on the platform just outside, which is safe and allows them to do their job.
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  10. #55

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith11618 View Post
    I was not talking about the railroad, but in general terms.
    Well, everything you wrote was in reference to the railroad, so I sort of took it that way.

  11. #56

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    [QUOTE=calsig31;1056837527]
    There has to be a reason for Disney to recover damages. There has to be some kind of harm that the damages are compensating for. That is why I said that unless the accident damaged some kind of Disney property, there really is no cause of action for Disney against the guest. There may be a cause of action against Disney, though.
    Even if you watch your kids 24/7, there is no guarantee that the kid would not have slipped anyway. That's why it is called an accident. It just happens. Disney is being responsible and modifying the dock so that it can't happen again.
    Negligence perhaps? I seem to recall you are a lawyer so you would know more about it than me.

    The Columbia was operating safely for 40 years before its incident. Time without an incident is not proof that something is safe. It is only proof that something hasn't happened yet, not that it never will.
    The Columbia accident as well as the BTMRR accident was well documented to be caused by maintenance cutbacks imposed by Paul Pressler and his goon T. Irby.
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  12. #57

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    Sadly, the Disnelyand Railroad is actually registered as a "Permanent Amusement Ride" with the state of California, which means it's basically considered on the same level as a roller coaster. In fact, as we're seeing more and more, it's not operated as a railroad.

    In the future, it may operate even more like a roller coaster, with less and less control being given to the crews. Those interior "cab signals" that tell the engineer whether to stop or go--and which replaced the line-side block signals that had worked effectively for almost 50 years--are expandable, so that one day, from a remote location like the Roundhouse, a train's brakes could be applied (an "E-stop" in coaster language), and the fire dumped.

    I wonder how long before the entire system is automated?

  13. #58

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Sadly, the Disnelyand Railroad is actually registered as a "Permanent Amusement Ride" with the state of California, which means it's basically considered on the same level as a roller coaster. In fact, as we're seeing more and more, it's not operated as a railroad.

    In the future, it may operate even more like a roller coaster, with less and less control being given to the crews. Those interior "cab signals" that tell the engineer whether to stop or go--and which replaced the line-side block signals that had worked effectively for almost 50 years--are expandable, so that one day, from a remote location like the Roundhouse, a train's brakes could be applied (an "E-stop" in coaster language), and the fire dumped.

    I wonder how long before the entire system is automated?
    Well my hope is that this never happens, but with increasing regulation this might come to fruition. The day this happens is the day Disneyland dies. Walt always wanted a train to surround his Magic Kingdom, so people could enjoy the full circle tour. I myself have always had an affinity for trains and railroads since I was young, so seeing this be turned into something that is less than authentic, and for dummies is devastating. I hope to work the DLRR someday...hopefully before it is destroyed
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  14. #59

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneymike View Post
    Anybody else think that if an accident occurs at the Park and it is found to be the guests fault that Disney should sue them? I do, maybe then people won't be so careless and pay attention. IMO, the attention span of a lot people nowadays is zilch. There was never the need for all the safety crud back when because people paid attention.

    Most of the excessive safety measures have come about as a result of lawsuit mania, when you can be sued by someone who did something stupid and got hurt, and then they hope that a gullible jury will award them a pile of money anyway. You can take reasonable safety precautions, but you can't protect people from their own stupidity. One time, a moron stepped off his Doombuggy during the sceance scene, and ended up hurting himself badly, because the floor is far below. Does that mean that we all should be strapped into those slow moving vehicles? Where does all this stop? We should all live in a cage or a plastic bubble, lest we do something stupid and find someone rich to sue?

    All the rides have built in safety measures, E stops, and a multi-lingual safety spiel. These are reasonable precautions, and 99.9% of the time, they are enough. There is such a thing as personal responsibility for your own actions (although that seems to be becoming an antiquated notion). If one idiot in 100,000 insists on breaking the rules, we should all pay the price with a neutered ride or a dulled down show? If someone is determined to be a fool, they will find a way to hurt themselves no matter what you do. So be it. Then they can be barred from the parks while the rest of us have fun.
    Last edited by disneyfann121; 09-14-2012 at 08:36 AM.

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    Re: Disneyland "Safety" & other debaucheries

    Quote Originally Posted by D3COY View Post
    Are you serious? Stuff blowing in their eyes? How silly to say something like that. Most people would just brush out whatever it is, not whine and complain and demand to be compensated.
    I said the stuff will blow inside the eyes of the conductor, not the guests. So the conductor will have to brush off the dirt with one hand and the other hand holding the handrail. Is it safer to have one hand on the handrails when the train is moving or two hands on two handrails when the train is moving?

    And for high speed rails, there are still conductors. And they are inside the train, because high speed rails are ENCLOSED. The DRR has open air cars, with no doors that shut when people board the train. The conductor stands on the platform just outside, which is safe and allows them to do their job.
    What job are they doing outside on the platform? No one said what their jobs are. Perhaps it is to be Superman to save someone on the tracks.

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