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  1. #136

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Also, in terms of overcrowding: the APs are largely blocked out on holidays and during the summer, and the parks are still cheek to jowl then. Does anyone really think that if Disney had everyone buying tickets instead of passes, they wouldn't pack the parks, just the same? They want your money, and once you've forked over your cash or signed that credit card slip and you're through the gate... they don't particularly care if you have to wait 5 minutes or 500 minutes to get on a ride.
    While it is true that there are block out days but for a max attendance of around 80,000 for the DLR there are, if I'm not mistaken, a little over 300,000 premium AP holders...

    So if I live in Anaheim, I'm off of school of the summer and bored, I'll call a bunch of friends and head to the park. Although we know its summer and its going to be packed, it doesn't matter we just wanted to go and hang out. (you figure that mentality exists among most teens and young adults)

    So a normal busy summer day becomes almost unbearable because of the influx of bored premium AP holders looking for something to do, if they got a pass they might as well use it. right?

    Quote Originally Posted by misfits138 View Post
    Do you not understand the concept of blockout dates? Only premium pass holders can go anytime. The vast majority of pass holders are restricted to days when tourists are typically absent. So how exactly are tourists effected in any signifcant way? AP holders sustain the park during the off season. Without that off season revenue, prices for single day tickets would need to be even higher.
    300,000 Premium AP holders, not a majority but still a HUGE amount of people who can go on a whim; and, again, no offense but as an AP holder I have never once thought "WE are the ones that keep this park running" How is this possible? if anything WE are the reason costs keeping going up, WE are the reasons why there is no off-season, WE are the ones who flood the parks causing Disneyland to close its gates to would-be paying guests, WE are the ones who trample over people to get that exclusive merchandise, WE are the ones who feel self-entitled while at the park and expect things handed to us, WE are the ones that cause rides to not really get the refurbs they need due to extra demand on what would be an off season, WE are the ones who drive up the cost of daily operations, and by WE I mean our AP community

    This is just one AP's outlook
    Last edited by christianAdam; 10-03-2012 at 07:00 AM.
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  2. #137

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Here is my situation. I will not be renewing when my AP comes due in December due to the price increases. I just cannot afford it.

    I am a local and I remember the days before APs so not being able to visit the park less than once per week does not worry me. What gives me the most anxiety about not renewing is those friends of mine who will be renewing their passes, and that I will not be able to hang out in the parks with them that much anymore. Given this I'd have to agree that the AP system has turned DL into a local hangout spot, not much different from the beach or the mall. Whether or not this is a good thing, I don't know.

  3. #138

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    The real issue is whether the cost of an AP is adequate to cover the costs that an AP holder incurs over the amount of time they visit
    Simply covering your cost is not how you build a successful business. You aren't in business to tread water, nor are Disney there to provide a free service. Disney has a product, that has an value. Anytime they are not recognizing the full value of that product, they are discounting it and at risk of losing money. They also risk DEvaluing the product when you discount too heavily or the product becomes too commoditized.

    'unlimited gate passes' pose many more problems than simply 'covering cost of operation'. Crowd management, calendar expectations, having to appease a demographic of higher frequency repeat guests, changes in visitation patterns, changes in infrastructure needs, etc.

    The AP discussion is a pricing model discussion AND an operational discussion,
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  4. #139

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by JMazz View Post
    This is very incorrect. Disney isn't loosing $85. You are assuming that the cost of a one day hopper is that of retail. Disney doesn't pay its' own retail price. Disney only pays for the operating costs of a *potentail* ticket, and the maintainence of the wear-and-tear of this person using the ticket.

    No one here can know what the daily cost is of any given guest (AP or tourist), but it is safe to say that APs make up for their operating costs the first time they make a purchase (no matter how small it is). We are talking a few pennies on the dollar (of that $85 "cost").

    APs make a profit in the long term. I am sure of this. But do they make a bigger profit as compared to a day guest buying a hopper? I think that is a "NO". And I think this is what you are trying to illustrate???

    There is a balance here, between AP guests and all other guests. Ideally APs fill in the holes that aren't filled by regular guests. Based on recent demand and the parks being swamped consistanly, I predict that the lower tier APs will disappear or have the largest increase in price the next time around. I also expect that there will be more blockouts for these passes.


    I don't think Disney saw how wildly popular the parks were going to be post-CL. In this economy ppl are staying much closer to home. DLR fills the current need.

    Forgive me if someone already pointed out what I said above, I am only on post # 50, but wanted to say this before I forgot... on to the rest of the thread. See you on the other side.
    In a way, yes that was kind of what I was trying to illustrate but the other part of what I was speaking of as far as potential profit loss looks like this.

    The value of a single day park hopper is $125

    I purchase a Premium AP at $649

    Now every trip into the park after my 5th visit Disney doesn't get the value of a purchase of that single day park-hopper.

    Do AP's help cover the cost of daily operations? I still don't know but what I DO know is that every time I visit after my 5th time, once I click through that turnstile Disney missed out on a potential ticket sales. Which is kind of bad for a business built on profiting from the public

    So I guess my POV isn't do AP's generate enough profit to cover the cost of daily operations. It would be more along the lines of...If I was a suit in the DLR I would be frustrated at the amount of potential profit they COULD be making if every customer was a paying customer. Because that is certainly NOT the case.

    Please slap me if I'm not making sense or being dillusional haha
    "If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that"





  5. #140

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    If you look at dlr annual reports you would see they are doing VERY WELL , ap's will never be eliminated
    Im here for fun and info not be a bully! Carsland here I come

  6. #141

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by christianAdam View Post
    In a way, yes that was kind of what I was trying to illustrate but the other part of what I was speaking of as far as potential profit loss looks like this.

    The value of a single day park hopper is $125

    I purchase a Premium AP at $649

    Now every trip into the park after my 5th visit Disney doesn't get the value of a purchase of that single day park-hopper.
    ....
    Please slap me if I'm not making sense or being dillusional haha
    You're making some sense.
    My preferred method of "amortization" of an AP Purchase is to value each visit as half the remaining "balance" as follows:
    PAP is $649. Let's round up to $650.
    1st visit is valued at $325. Remaining balance is $325.
    2nd visit is valued at $162.50. Remaining balance is $162.50.

    The logic behind this is that it is possible that after that last visit, you might not go ever again, and that remaining balance, be it $162.50 or less than 1 cent (the 16th visit, in case you're wondering), is "wasted."
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  7. #142

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trav1Disney View Post
    If you look at dlr annual reports you would see they are doing VERY WELL , ap's will never be eliminated
    could you supply a link to those reports?
    "If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that"





  8. #143

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trav1Disney View Post
    If you look at dlr annual reports you would see they are doing VERY WELL , ap's will never be eliminated
    If I could look at one, I would look at one.
    Please help me find a Disneyland Resort Annual Report.
    I'll wait over here…

    I mean, it would be really cool if the DIS annual report separated DLR from the other resorts.

    The AP Program is not the cause of DLR's "doing well" (according to an annual report you've seen). If that were the case, then I wonder why WDW does so well with such a smaller AP base, or why WDW has not aggressively tried to expand the WDW AP base.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  9. #144

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by sediment View Post
    You're making some sense.
    My preferred method of "amortization" of an AP Purchase is to value each visit as half the remaining "balance" as follows:
    PAP is $649. Let's round up to $650.
    1st visit is valued at $325. Remaining balance is $325.
    2nd visit is valued at $162.50. Remaining balance is $162.50.

    The logic behind this is that it is possible that after that last visit, you might not go ever again, and that remaining balance, be it $162.50 or less than 1 cent (the 16th visit, in case you're wondering), is "wasted."
    That sounds a lot better.

    Thank you for your insight!
    "If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that"





  10. #145

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    No problem.

    Regardless, the AP Program could not be shut down overnight.
    If I were in charge, I'd let each AP'er buy one more renewal.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  11. #146

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    I have a simple solution. Disney should ONLY sell AP's to individuals outside a 800 mile radius of DLR.



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  12. #147

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Simply covering your cost is not how you build a successful business. You aren't in business to tread water, nor are Disney there to provide a free service. Disney has a product, that has an value. Anytime they are not recognizing the full value of that product, they are discounting it and at risk of losing money. They also risk DEvaluing the product when you discount too heavily or the product becomes too commoditized.

    'unlimited gate passes' pose many more problems than simply 'covering cost of operation'. Crowd management, calendar expectations, having to appease a demographic of higher frequency repeat guests, changes in visitation patterns, changes in infrastructure needs, etc.

    The AP discussion is a pricing model discussion AND an operational discussion,
    Agreed.
    Eliminate "all the problems" with one solution. So simple. Yet, it will be such a headache to whoever is in charge. Glad it's not me, even though it would be the first thing I'd do.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  13. #148

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Simply covering your cost is not how you build a successful business. You aren't in business to tread water, nor are Disney there to provide a free service. Disney has a product, that has an value. Anytime they are not recognizing the full value of that product, they are discounting it and at risk of losing money. They also risk DEvaluing the product when you discount too heavily or the product becomes too commoditized.

    'unlimited gate passes' pose many more problems than simply 'covering cost of operation'. Crowd management, calendar expectations, having to appease a demographic of higher frequency repeat guests, changes in visitation patterns, changes in infrastructure needs, etc.

    The AP discussion is a pricing model discussion AND an operational discussion,
    I made a long post that basically agreed with what you said. There isn't much of a need to cherry pick one sentence.

    In any case, the post you quoted was not directed at the overall profitability picture, but rather at the direct discussion that was going on at the time. Later in the post I then expanded to the larger scale as is necessary to view the whole picture (where I went on to talk specifically about bringing in higher paying guests to maximize profits).
    Last edited by Trevor; 10-03-2012 at 10:12 AM.

  14. #149

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    I definitely agree that if it was to happen (which I highly doubt), They would do it incrementally because stopping it all at once would mean a very sharp decline in attendance.

    I just don't see it happening. I see them making prices higher before they ever consider discontinuing it.
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  15. #150

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
    It does make financial sense for the park, though, sediment.

    Only if Disney cannot fill the parks with higher paying guests which they are finding they now can.

    Quote Originally Posted by NineteenTwenty8 View Post
    Im personally sick of the arrogance of many out-of-towners that feel like they are more 'deserving' of the resort and how those pesky APers should get out of the way and stop crowding 'their' parks. Im an APer and I spend hundreds of dollars of my hard earned money on a pass, I also spend ALOT throughout the course of the year on food/merch etc. , a tourist has no more importance than any APer. We ALL spend money, people need to stop with that mindset.
    I find this goes both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by misfits138 View Post
    I am curious as to what makes you an expert on the habits and spending activities of tourists. Do you have statistical research you can cite to verify your statements? I mean "per hour"? Where did you get this information from? Also, whether are not tourists stay in a Disneyland hotel more frequently than AP holders is not particularly revelent to the discussion of whether or not AP holders are overcrowding the parks and decreasing the enjoyment of tourists.
    The entire point of an Annual Pass is that the more you go, the more economical it becomes. At $330, it wouldn't take many visits before a passholder is saving money. I am not quoting any secret statistics or expressing some profound understanding. I'm just outlining the basic truth that AP holders spend less on getting into the park. The only reason I stated per hour instead of per day was because general consensus is that AP holders don't stay as long as tourists. It was to keep the comparison fair.. As for food and merchandise, that opinion is based on logic and observation. Few people could afford to drop the amount of cash a tourist spends in the park on souvineers consistently over the same length of visit.

    Also. The thread topic is not only on the affects of the program. The title and OP don't suggest that at all.
    Last edited by Trevor; 10-03-2012 at 10:15 AM.

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