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  1. #151

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by christianAdam View Post
    While it is true that there are block out days but for a max attendance of around 80,000 for the DLR there are, if I'm not mistaken, a little over 300,000 premium AP holders...

    So if I live in Anaheim, I'm off of school of the summer and bored, I'll call a bunch of friends and head to the park. Although we know its summer and its going to be packed, it doesn't matter we just wanted to go and hang out. (you figure that mentality exists among most teens and young adults)

    So a normal busy summer day becomes almost unbearable because of the influx of bored premium AP holders looking for something to do, if they got a pass they might as well use it. right?



    300,000 Premium AP holders, not a majority but still a HUGE amount of people who can go on a whim; and, again, no offense but as an AP holder I have never once thought "WE are the ones that keep this park running" How is this possible? if anything WE are the reason costs keeping going up, WE are the reasons why there is no off-season, WE are the ones who flood the parks causing Disneyland to close its gates to would-be paying guests, WE are the ones who trample over people to get that exclusive merchandise, WE are the ones who feel self-entitled while at the park and expect things handed to us, WE are the ones that cause rides to not really get the refurbs they need due to extra demand on what would be an off season, WE are the ones who drive up the cost of daily operations, and by WE I mean our AP community

    This is just one AP's outlook
    So if the park were crowded with 80,000 ticket holders would it somehow be less unbearable than a park with 80,000 APers? Crowded is crowded. And in my experience an APer is a lot more likely to say "you know, I don't want to wait 100 minutes for every ride. Let's go" and leave if the park is crowded, instead of sticking it out.

    Also, our rides get more refurbs than the ones at WDW by a longshot and that IS because of the AP community: if Matterhorn is closed for six months, well, we can come back in six months. At WDW if a ride is closed for six months, most visitors will just miss out on it because they aren't coming back.

    Back to what I said earlier: if Disney really wanted to alleviate overcrowding, they'd cut down on capacity, not APs. They'd cap the gate at, say, 50,000 or 60,000 instead of 80,000...but they won't do that because again, they want your money.

    Locals DO keep the parks running. DLR will never be a "destination" in the same way WDW is. We're the ones who staff the parks. We're the ones who are there on those nights in January when there's no one in line for half the rides. Nobody should be arrogant, but to pretend that tourists only add to the park and locals/APers only detract is not seeing the forest for the (evil) trees, IMHO.

    Unpleasant people come in both home grown and tourist varieties, too, I find...I've never trampled anyone or felt entitled to anything. I have, however, overheard people loudly complaining about "ghetto locals," I've had my feet run over by tourists with strollers, etc.
    Last edited by Malina; 10-03-2012 at 11:47 AM.

  2. #152

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by NineteenTwenty8 View Post
    Im personally sick of the arrogance of many out-of-towners that feel like they are more 'deserving' of the resort and how those pesky APers should get out of the way and stop crowding 'their' parks. Im an APer and I spend hundreds of dollars of my hard earned money on a pass, I also spend ALOT throughout the course of the year on food/merch etc. , a tourist has no more importance than any APer. We ALL spend money, people need to stop with that mindset.
    I don't understand how a non AP holder could even determine who is crowding the parks. I see a lot of people BUYING tickets. It could go two ways... Example - Those pesky ticket buyers! Don't they know they are crowding our park and meandering aimlessly not knowing exactly what attraction they want to go to?

    We are all, obviously, in love with Disneyland. That is what makes going there even more special, as mentioned. We all love the fantasy, leaving the woes of life behind to be in a world of happy.. Even if its for an hour.

    ---------- Post added 10-03-2012 at 12:21 PM ----------

    Also, you cannot ammortize AP's. mathematically, it is irrelevant to the fiscal picture. They(Disney) has determined the ultimate price for all year access to be Premium AP pricing.

    Id say that would be ... End of discussion.

  3. #153

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    So if the park were crowded with 80,000 ticket holders would it somehow be less unbearable than a park with 80,000 APers? Crowded is crowded. And in my experience an APer is a lot more likely to say "you know, I don't want to wait 100 minutes for every ride. Let's go" and leave if the park is crowded, instead of sticking it out.

    Also, our rides get more refurbs than the ones at WDW by a longshot and that IS because of the AP community: if Matterhorn is closed for six months, well, we can come back in six months. At WDW if a ride is closed for six months, most visitors will just miss out on it because they aren't coming back.

    Back to what I said earlier: if Disney really wanted to alleviate overcrowding, they'd cut down on capacity, not APs. They'd cap the gate at, say, 50,000 or 60,000 instead of 80,000...but they won't do that because again, they want your money.

    Locals DO keep the parks running. DLR will never be a "destination" in the same way WDW is. We're the ones who staff the parks. We're the ones who are there on those nights in January when there's no one in line for half the rides. Nobody should be arrogant, but to pretend that tourists only add to the park and locals/APers only detract is not seeing the forest for the (evil) trees, IMHO.

    Unpleasant people come in both home grown and tourist varieties, too, I find...I've never trampled anyone or felt entitled to anything. I have, however, overheard people loudly complaining about "ghetto locals," I've had my feet run over by tourists with strollers, etc.
    yes it would be less unbearable, there wouldn't be any type of tension between AP and non-AP. the GAC would be abused a lot less, because I know for a fact that a majority of the abuse of that card comes from local AP's that don't want to wait in line. It would be used for those who actually require the assistance and not just because you have IBS. The problem also lies within the park becoming a "hang out" place, I have on many occasions been there when it was largely crowded and stuck it out because I had nothing else better to do. There is more to do at Disneyland then go on rides...we all know that.

    WDW has a lot more rides and a larger property so the comparison is a moot point. But please tell me how AP's are specifically responsible for refurbs? The problem I am seeing isn't the "oh its closed we'll come back in six months" its the fact that to truly get that Matterhorn refurb done the RIGHT way (because we know there are PLENTY of people unhappy with the new sleds) it should have been down longer. Another example is IJA how many times can a ride break down and still NOT get the refurb it needs because the ride is in such high demand. There are also PLENTY of posts of how sad the conditions have become on that ride where things aren't working properly...well, when do they have time to fix it? There used to be an off season where most of those rides could get plussed up and refurbed the right way, not needing to wait till its in utter despair. Lastly, you can tell most of these rides weren't meant for the amount of wear and tear they now get, instead of getting breaks to catch their breath they are pushed passed the point of exhaustion.

    Disney would cut the AP program before EVER cutting the attendance down. I could pretty much tell you this as a fact, the only person who was meant to spend everyday at the park was Walt himself. There are countless interviews where he states that this is a place for families to come and enjoy; but on a weekly basis? Disneyland was meant to be that placed you dreamed about untill the day you finally arrived, IMHO I think Disneyland was built to only visit once or twice a year per family. THAT is what made it so amazing! that is where my most fondest memories come from, the anticipation, the countdown, the sleepless nights thinking about everything you are going to do. You can't tell me that that same excitement and feeling happens if you went every single week or a few times a month.

    In Disneyland's hayday you would have people from all over the world staffing the park, in fact even today there are college programs that allow you to travel to Anaheim and work for Disneyland. To say ONLY locals staff the park is an entirely false statement, every single actor, dancer, ride operator, skipper, and character are from Anaheim? If you look at Cast Member badges a lot of them have the location of where they come from. Not all of them say Anaheim.

    Tell me what night in January are there no lines? I have been various times through out my years as an AP holder and I could tell you that year after year the crowds get worse and worse, maybe its people clinging on to the last bit of innocence they have left and don't want to give it up, or just the person looking for a bargain and finding it in the AP program; the park feels smothered now...in fact the only time to really get a break from them is on a rainy day...it was nice to be able to go on those off-season times where you know you may not ride all the rides due to refurbs but you got to enjoy a quiet day with less crowds. In fact, eventhough it would cause me to only go once a year, if DLR was willing to charge more for tickets assuring that it would be a day with light crowds, I would be first in line.

    I may have come off harsh when I made that statement and you're right, there are plenty of stressed out tourist that come off snarky and pushy and for that there is no excuse either. My apologies on that, kind of got caught up in the moment
    Last edited by christianAdam; 10-03-2012 at 03:13 PM.
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  4. #154

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by christianAdam View Post
    yes it would be less unbearable, there wouldn't be any type of tension between AP and non-AP. the GAC would be abused a lot less, because I know for a fact that a majority of the abuse of that card comes from local AP's that don't want to wait in line. It would be used for those who actually require the assistance and not just because you have IBS.
    That's a matter of opinion, though...when the park is packed cheek to jowl and you can't even move, it's tension. People aren't generally angry because the person next to them is an AP; they're angry because they can't get from New Orleans Square to Main Street in under 30 minutes because the crowd is so heavy. And again, in my experience, at least, APers are much more likely to call it a day and just leave when the crowd is so bad, whereas hopper ticket holders are trying to squeeze every bit of value and time they can from their tickets...so they will hang on even when the lines are out of control.

    l most of these rides weren't meant for the amount of wear and tear they now get, instead of getting breaks to catch their breath they are pushed passed the point of exhaustion.
    If you read the WDW board you will also see people complaining about the condition of rides, and that's a more tourist driven park...so WDI isn't keeping the rides up to appease APs. WDI is keeping them up and wearing them out because they're cheap and they don't want to lose the $$. Also consider that Disneyland takes rides out for holiday overlays when WDW does not, and last year there were a whole bunch of E-tickets down at once, so they're clearly not afraid of backlash from shutting things down.

    You can't tell me that that same excitement and feeling happens if you went every single week or a few times a month.
    Not every APer comes "several times a month" or every week; the APs can be cost-effective even for those who travel out every six months.

    Also, this goes back to judgment on how people should approach Disney. If it's someone's after-work escape every Friday or someone's once in a lifetime trip...we can't judge or decide how others want to view Disney, IMHO.

    In Disneyland's hayday you would have people from all over the world staffing the park, in fact even today there are college programs that allow you to travel to Anaheim and work for Disneyland. To say ONLY locals staff the park is an entirely false statement, every single actor, dancer, ride operator, skipper, and character are from Anaheim? If you look at Cast Member badges a lot of them have the location of where they come from. Not all of them say Anaheim.
    No, but outside of the College Program, most of those badges say "Fullerton," "Garden Grove," "Los Angeles," "Westminster," etc...and if you talk to those who have other places on their badge you find that they generally relocated to Southern California some time ago. IIRC Disney has been recognized as the biggest provider of jobs in Orange County, so yes, locals do power the park.

    Also, along with that--again, Disney's responsible for the fact that their employees don't come from all over the world anymore. The wages they pay are not competitive, and you aren't going to find a lot of folks outside of the College Program who relocate to Anaheim for $10/hour, when they could get that in their own hometown.

    Tell me what night in January are there no lines? I have been various times through out my years as an AP holder and I could tell you that year after year the crowds get worse and worse, maybe its people clinging on to the last bit of innocence they have left and don't want to give it up, or just the person looking for a bargain and finding it in the AP program; the park feels smothered now.
    There have been plenty of times I've showed up and the rides, aside from a few like Space, Peter Pan and Star Tours, have all been walk ons. The Touring Planner shows a lot of days rated for 1 - 3 at Disneyland. The park is NOT to capacity on a lot of days; if it were, they'd extend opening hours off-season.

    It's a heated discussion, and I know we all feel strongly about this, so no apology needed.

  5. #155

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Raising the ticket prices would send families to Universal Studios or Elsewhere. I know many people already can't take their family because it'd cost them a mortgage payment to go.

    the AP program is to valuable to get rid of. If they raise the AP price, people will still buy it. We did and will again next Spring.

  6. #156

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Not every APer comes "several times a month" or every week; the APs can be cost-effective even for those who travel out every six months.

    Also, this goes back to judgment on how people should approach Disney. If it's someone's after-work escape every Friday or someone's once in a lifetime trip...we can't judge or decide how others want to view Disney, IMHO.
    This. No one should be in the business of dictating how others should appreciate or enjoy disneyland. Not disney and certainly not us. If someone wants to show up at opening and hit every ride, they every right to do so. That also goes for the person who wants a cup of coffee on main street with a friend after work and maybe go on 2 rides and a fantasmic showing.
    In the quest for quality, I have no problem with the characters footing the bill.

  7. #157

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    I just wish Disney made AP's you can go ANY day of the year...but limited to 20 visits....or 24 times (twice a month)

  8. #158

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    1. disney won't kill the AP but they have internal projections on how many APs they want (and of each type) and will raise the price until there is an inflection point and revenue starts to seriously decline. they just gave us a massive raise and this will continue. this is a win-win for disney as they both increase revenue (significantly) and lower the number of APs. as expensive as disneyland tickets are, the fact that attendance at the parks has been increasing suggests that the ticket prices are actually underpriced.

    2. the reason disney doesn't like the APs as much as normal tourists is because APs consistently underspend at the parks, for obvious reasons. why spend 60 dollars for a crappy dinner in the park when you could just leave and eat elsewhere. if you are going to disneyland once in a year, sure let's buy some stuffed animals and hats. if it's your 10th time there then you aren't going to buy anything. why do you think disney gives us 10% off food and merchandise? it's so they can track AP spending across the parks.

    3. full parks have the problem of crowding out normal tourists. with the internet and sites like touring plans, many potential tourists probably avoid disneyland when projections are for "insanely crowded". back when i would only go once or so a year (and had no AP), i would never go to d-land during the busy season. if all APs were banned though and projections weren't bad, i probably would have gone much more often since the holidays are when i actually had free days to go.

    4. imo the solution is to actually remove the highest passport, or at least price it in the stratosphere. essentially price out APs on those busy days (certain saturdays, holiday season, summer season) so that normal tourists are encouraged to come. APs can fill up the parks during off season weekdays.

  9. #159

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    They actualkly want to cut some annual passholders because of capacity issues at the park. But they want to keep the AP program going. That's why costs keep going up.

  10. #160

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerrodDRagon View Post
    I just wish Disney made AP's you can go ANY day of the year...but limited to 20 visits....or 24 times (twice a month)
    I like the idea of a point based AP. You buy passes with different amounts of points. A super slow no firework and fantasmic! day could be 1 point. Medium crowd days could be 2 points. Packed days could be 4. Holidays and special events could be 6+ points.
    In the quest for quality, I have no problem with the characters footing the bill.

  11. #161

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerrodDRagon View Post
    I just wish Disney made AP's you can go ANY day of the year...but limited to 20 visits....or 24 times (twice a month)
    Why?

    ---------- Post added 10-03-2012 at 05:49 PM ----------

    It still sounds very AntiAP and AntiAP holder, to me.

    And where is the factual evidence that Disney doesn't like the AP?
    Sorry, I think that it's one of their best offers.

  12. #162

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    I agree with this. When I see threads about "ugh, those APers crowded the parks" it makes me sad. We live here in Southern California. Our people keep the parks running, both in terms of supporting it during the less successful years, and providing the manpower to staff the parks. Why shouldn't we have a Southern California pass, and if we paid to get our AP, why shouldn't we enjoy it? We spend money like anyone else, and in my experience APers are the first to offer help to guests who are lost or lend a hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by misfits138 View Post
    Without that off season revenue, prices for single day tickets would need to be even higher.
    These sounds like thee eternal "I pay your salary" argument.
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  13. #163

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chesire View Post
    These sounds like thee eternal "I pay your salary" argument.
    It's not--and I think my original full post made that clear. Especially since it was not directed toward Disney.

    It's a statement of frustration that tourists and visitors from out of town seem to think that locals with APs are somehow in the way, or that having an AP, we're somehow wrong to enjoy it. Some of the statements made, such as "the locals can visit in the off season, darn them for showing up and making the park crowded"...um, should I come to YOUR city and tell you when you can visit the attractions in town? Maybe the tourists make the park crowded for US. We don't enjoy capacity-level crowds any more than someone from Idaho does.

    The point of my statement was that locals are a valuable part of Disney's operation and culture. It's kind of weird to tell the people who run the parks or the people who live in the communities around the parks that they shouldn't be able to go to the parks when they so choose...or vilify them if they buy and use APs. Or blame them for all of the park's ills, when in truth, most of them are of Disney's own making.
    Last edited by Malina; 10-03-2012 at 05:19 PM.

  14. #164

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneychrista View Post
    Do away with the SoCal passes. Keep the deluxe and the premium.
    I'm buying one (SoCal Select) tomorrow, so I don't agree.
    Last edited by Not My Real Name; 10-03-2012 at 05:57 PM.
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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    It's Disney's decision to aggressively market APs -- over a million and rising. It's Disney's decision to price APs so that when they're fully utilized, a day at Disneyland costs less than the price of a movie ticket. It's Disney's decision to make up the lower AP food and merch revenue by jacking up the prices of day tickets. It's Disney's decision to allow the Park to get packed to insane levels, while cutting back on staffing.

    AP holders and day tourists shouldn't be blaming each other for the overcrowding and decline of the Disneyland experience, they should both blame the responsible party: the Disney Corporation. In every one of these threads, APers and tourists end up at each others' throats, while Disney Corp plays both ends against the middle and laughs all the way to the bank. Higher prices for AP tickets, higher prices for day tickets, and bigger crowds. Disney wins, you lose.
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