No more annual passes in 2013?

[Poisonedapples]

To answer your question,I have not heard of this, and i googled it and nothing game up.I think the AP's are a money saver specially with the parking included on the premium,$15 to park every time you go does add up.I do not think it's entirely accurate that nobody is spending money like a tourist anymore in the parks, tell my credit card this and it will tell you that's impossible! LOL

---------- Post added 10-02-2012 at 09:12 AM ----------

1. While we may not spend as much as tourist, I certainly pay my share of cash on food, and definitely booze in DCA.

yes..me too.. love the wine bar...

[APJ1127]

ChristianAdam,
That makes perfect sense.
However, I'm not certain we have a definitive answer regarding daily spending. Sure, the average tourist spends more per day on food and merch. But does the AP spend less but often enough to trump this?
Just for the sake of numbers lets say the average tourist spends $150 on food and merch, whereas the AP spends $30 on each visit. Using that low 5 visits per year scenario, that already matches what the average tourist would spend.
Now for the LOCAL APs, I would assume the average visit per year is closer to 12. In that case, using $30/visit, the total for the year is $360.

That said, I believe the answer would be what we've already seen from corporate. Raise the price out of some peoples range, and perhaps in the future, add more block out dates. Local APs are loyal and will find days to go. Tourists are more limited time-wise. It's like cattle; the APs will be herded into the non-peak season pens while the tourists will fill up the peak season pens.

[CaliforniaAdventurer]

I think the OP maybe heard that the CALIFORNIA RESIDENT ones are going away, which Al has suggested may be the case.

[Poisonedapples]

I think the OP maybe heard that the CALIFORNIA RESIDENT ones are going away, which Al has suggested may be the case.

omg!! that would be great if they did, because it's useless!

[christianAdam]

ChristianAdam,
That makes perfect sense.
However, I'm not certain we have a definitive answer regarding daily spending. Sure, the average tourist spends more per day on food and merch. But does the AP spend less but often enough to trump this?
Just for the sake of numbers lets say the average tourist spends $150 on food and merch, whereas the AP spends $30 on each visit. Using that low 5 visits per year scenario, that already matches what the average tourist would spend.
Now for the LOCAL APs, I would assume the average visit per year is closer to 12. In that case, using $30/visit, the total for the year is $360.

That said, I believe the answer would be what we've already seen from corporate. Raise the price out of some peoples range, and perhaps in the future, add more block out dates. Local APs are loyal and will find days to go. Tourists are more limited time-wise. It's like cattle; the APs will be herded into the non-peak season pens while the tourists will fill up the peak season pens.

Thank you for not making me think I was crazy!

Yes, the tourist could possibly spend $150 in the park but they have also already had to purchase their ticket. DLR would already profit $125 for an admission to the park from a regualr guest and then an added $150 during their visit for whatever food/merch so disney just made a profit of $275 off of that one guest. which is where the DLR would be losing money from an AP stand point; on your 6th visit you would actually be causing Disney to lose profit by your admission into the park...in order to cover that admission cost a Premium AP would have to spend the minimum of $125 per day on food and/or merch. Which I know I have not done, so after that whatever money you spent per visit would THEN be profit to them. So spending $30 a day wouldn't cover the cost of admission

---------- Post added 10-02-2012 at 09:39 AM ----------

Only on a day when Disneyland fills to the point that they stop selling tickets. And you're probably blocked out those days, unless you're a Premium Passholder.

So you don't think there was MASSIVE profit loss on the "One more Disney Day" promo?

My whole thing is this, Yes the attendance will be higher with AP guests...BUT that means that the DLR has to bring in more staffing to handle the bigger crowds, but if your crowd is 60% passholders that have already gone to the park enough to cover the cost of their AP then Disney is losing mass profit. You have to pay staff to help run a park that is filled with people who are costing the DLR money everytime they go (again, AFTER they have gone to the park enough to cover the cost of whatever AP they own).

[Pinrar]

Thank you for not making me think I was crazy!

Yes, the tourist could possibly spend less in the park but they have also already had to purchase their ticket which is where the DLR would be losing money from an AP stand point

So on your 6th visit you would actually be causing Disney to lose profit by your admission into the park...in order to cover that admission cost a Premium AP would have to spend the minimum of $125 per day on food and/or merch. Which I know I have not done, so after that whatever money you spent per visit would THEN be profit to them. So spending $30 a day wouldn't cover the cost of admission

I doubt it is that simple. First you need to think about how many times the average pass holder would go a year paying full hopper price if they didnt go with the AP. I doubt most people would actually go 5 times a year with basic tickets. So what disney is actually doing is luring people in and sort of forcing them to pay 5 days worth of tickets, or most likely, 3 or 4 more tickets worth than they would buy otherwise.

Yes they get to go more often than 5 times a year but like I said in my earlier post, those days after the 5th probably dont add very much to park operating costs so they are still taking in a lot more revenue from the passholder than they would have if the program didn't exist.

[christianAdam]

I doubt it is that simple. First you need to think about how many times the average pass holder would go a year paying full hopper price if they didnt go with the AP. I doubt most people would actually go 5 times a year with basic tickets. So what disney is actually doing is luring people in and sort of forcing them to pay 5 days worth of tickets, or most likely, 3 or 4 more tickets worth than they would buy otherwise.

Yes they get to go more often than 5 times a year but like I said in my earlier post, those days after the 5th probably dont add very much to park operating costs so they are still taking in a lot more revenue from the passholder than they would have if the program didn't exist.

You also have to factor in that those guests coming in for a 3 or 4 or 5 day park visit also need to stay at a hotel so that also opens another oppurtunity to gain more profit by offering a stay at one of the DLR hotels. Yes an AP probably would not visit the park as much if the AP was wiped clean but that would also guarentee that every person coming into the park would be all profit all the time. It would bring back an actual "off season" which would require lower staffing which in turn would also bring down the daily cost of operations

I think I answered the other part of your post in the post above.

[lazyboy97O]

I would not be surprised to see another sizable price increase in 2013. The parks only have so much capacity, and while people tend to love seeing attendance numbers grow, there is a cap. The Disneyland Resort may well be at or near a point where it would be better to try and lower attendance some. To make that work, revenue per person needs to increase.

[Giant Panda]

omg!! that would be great if they did, because it's useless!

That's a little strong. Depending on one's work/school schedule, A SoCal or even a SoCal Select AP can get you into the park plenty of times.

There are a couple of things I usually see missing from discussions like these, and other things that I do see that don't make sense. And yes they are related.

I generally don't see anyone considering Disney's costs in anything. People are quick to mention anecdotal data on how much they spend, but they seldom if ever considers Disney's costs in bringing that product to the consumer. Somebody had to slop and slaughter the hog that went into that corn dog (don't get me started on corn costs), somebody had to fry it up, somebody had to give the red wagon a fresh coat of paint. It would be helpful in these discussions if we had some idea of Disney's profit margin of various items. How much does Disney profit from that $50/$150/$500 you spend?

Something else I see is the point that APs "drive attendance up", as if this is necessarily a good thing. I think most people would agree that higher attendance costs the company more than "light" days in labor costs. And if those additional "attendees" aren't spending enough on those high-profit items, the company can profit from them not being in the park.

Lastly, I am amused by how people think they know better than the company how to run their business. I'm saddened by such misconceptions on the part of political leaders, but I think it's funny how some micechatters think they know better than those who have actual numbers and assume the risks associated with taking action based on those numbers.

[biggsworth]

I haven't read the whole thread but it comes down to simple mth. If they make money off it they stay. I would say if one of the teir isn't pulling it's weight then it would go away. IMO that's the cheapest pass they offer.

The rumor about APers not spending as much as turoists is just a rumor. None of us know that number or ever will. Even CMs will barely have this information not as a whole. Someone in the corporate office can produce this report and it would never be shared publically.

I know I spend a lot with my AP on merchandise especially pins/art/clothes and I am not alone. the people in those long lines for limited edition items and events aren't tourists.

In the eyes of a corporate entity like Disney is the more people in your "store" the more they spend. They are quite happy with their filled parks. It was different when Walt was alive because he would spend his own money to keep the park going, or not puch as much ephasis on making money all the time . That pretty much won't happen today unless Richard Branson buys Disneyland

[christianAdam]

I haven't read the whole thread but it comes down to simple mth. If they make money off it they stay. I would say if one of the teir isn't pulling it's weight then it would go away. IMO that's the cheapest pass they offer.

The rumor about APers not spending as much as turoists is just a rumor. None of us know that number or ever will. Even CMs will barely have this information not as a whole. Someone in the corporate office can produce this report and it would never be shared publically.

I know I spend a lot with my AP on merchandise especially pins/art/clothes and I am not alone. the people in those long lines for limited edition items and events aren't tourists.

In the eyes of a corporate entity like Disney is the more people in your "store" the more they spend. They are quite happy with their filled parks. It was different when Walt was alive because he would spend his own money to keep the park going, or not puch as much ephasis on making money all the time . That pretty much won't happen today unless Richard Branson buys Disneyland

True we may not know how much they spend at the park but they've already spent $125 more than an annual pass holder (after going to DLR enough to pay for their pass) just to get into the park.

[lazyboy97O]

The rumor about APers not spending as much as turoists is just a rumor. None of us know that number or ever will. Even CMs will barely have this information not as a whole. Someone in the corporate office can produce this report and it would never be shared publically.

It is not rumor, it is the logic of how seasonal and annual passes work. The whole point of offering a season or annual pass is to get people in quickly with the hope that overall, spending a little each trip, that it offsets the discounted admission and generates more revenue. At the Disneyland Resort, the need to offer an incentive to generate visitation is diminishing. Combine that with its role as a tourist destination and not just as a local park, and yes, the situation is only pushing towards one where Annual Passes are a less profitable.

This is why the Annual Passes at the Tokyo Disney Resort are so expensive. Admission is cheaper and there is a strong expectation that people will make purchases when they visit.

[swampymarsh]

Is there evidence somewhere (actual figures from Disney and not fan conjecture) that AP holders spend less? I'm just curious as I see this trotted out a lot and I'm interested in the source.

I'm no going to dig through the net to find a source, but you can take my word for it if you would like. It's related but not about APHs. Back in the Eisner days he told shareholders that the parks are increasing revenue, WDW and DL. Revenue was increasing in two ways. Increased attendance. Way more important was that guests were spending more in the parks than to get in the parks. Then in WDW guests were also staying in the new hotels but that revenue wasn't included in these statements about parks.

I think that they may either eliminate or raise the Southern California AP passes before they eliminate them all together.

I think the OP maybe heard that the CALIFORNIA RESIDENT ones are going away, which Al has suggested may be the case.

I doubt that it would be eliminated, but possibly renamed. A lot of places have special passes to even out attendance that DLR almost does and may try. Weekday Passes. Then some places have the more expensive but more useful Weekend Pass to compliment it. This can be an alternative to making passes with blackout days.

It may be very important to market a product as Local Only, or Your Thing. This is what resident passes achieve. Increases value by making things exclusive.

[smartlabelprint]

By having the discount attached to APs for food & merch they're definitely tracking spending. I agree with above poster's who mention Disney will get rid of the AP classifications that aren't spending enough.

[Pinrar]

You also have to factor in that those guests coming in for a 3 or 4 or 5 day park visit also need to stay at a hotel so that also opens another oppurtunity to gain more profit by offering a stay at one of the DLR hotels. Yes an AP probably would not visit the park as much if the AP was wiped clean but that would also guarentee that every person coming into the park would be all profit all the time. It would bring back an actual "off season" which would require lower staffing which in turn would also bring down the daily cost of operations

I think I answered the other part of your post in the post above.

What i think is that cost of park operations does not increase proportionally to increased bodies in the parks. The staffing and the rate attractions run doesn't look much more increased when the park is say at 5/10 versus a 2/10 crowd. So i believe disney isn't paying that much more when attendance increases.

At this point, the numbers most certainly add up to where they are making more profit than if there was no AP program regardless of how much more or less it cost to run the park. Otherwise APs would be gone real quick. Just look at the short notice they gave us regarding the 150 price hike. They gave 2 days warning!

As for hotels and in park spending, Not every tourist stays on site. There are a lot more rooms on harbor than there are on resort property so not every tourist shells out the big hotel bucks. Also, APs tend to buy a lot of limited edition merch like pins, art and the like. Think about your own example of one more disney day. I got there at opening and walked in the emporium and I had trouble finding the exclusive shirts in the sizes I needed. Those things sold out like crazy! Lines for the exclusive food were HUGE!! By 3:00 am when I left, The ticket booths were filled up using all of the chain link switchbacks! OMDD actually brought in more customers so a lot of money was made off of the event.

APs spend a lot in the long run. Probably many of us spend more than the average tourist does while contributing little to operating costs relative to how often we go. Especially when you consider how few rides and services APs use on slow days and after work hours. LOL a lot of us see a wait time longer than 30 min and we say "....we'll do it next time."