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  1. #61

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinrar View Post
    But we cant look at it as disney is losing 125 a day. First of all because no one is going to go once a month with prices at 125 so disney is not losing 125 after the 5th visit because no one is going to go that often without the pass. Second it cost no where near $125 a person to run the park on a given day and still make a profit.

    The way it needs to be calculated is the price of AP plus total spent on merch and food divided by number a visits a year. Compare that number to the average cost to run the park divided by the number of guests that day and you have your answer whether or not an average AP holder pulls their weight and generates a profit relative to how often they go.

    Its all speculation at this point but I'd bet that on average the AP program generates enough money to make a profit over the extra burden the program puts on the park and its operations cost.

    With this calculation I imagine that most APs do in fact spend enough in merch, food, and their AP price in a year to pay for the cost they add to run the park.
    If that was the case for the AP program why are they getting hit the hardest with the price increase? I don't get how if they spent as much in the parks why the price has sky rocketed. If this was their bread and butter then why do they offer up so many discounts. They are pretty much begging AP's to spend money at the resort because of the money lost on entrance.

    I think it would be safe to say that most AP holders visit the parks more than 5 days a year, most spread through out the year and not all at once.

    so lets use your calculation. I have a premium pass at $649, I have been to park a total of 9 times this year. Avg money spent on food and merch would come out to $60 per visit.

    so 9 visits would come out to DLR having to pay for 4 of them at $560
    avg spent on food and merch is $60 coming out to a total of $540

    so out of my 9 visits Disney loses a profit of.....$20

    but you have to remember the more I go the less profit Disney makes...for instance

    We are going up this weekend for my daughters birthday. so that would make my total to 10 trips; which would bring the total that Disney pays for my visit to $700. My avg expenditure still being $60 brings that total to $600

    Therefore just for my visit alone it is costing Disneyland $100 to be there.

    I'm sure if you could find out the amount of AP holders that have already been to the parks enough to pay off their pass, and avg the amount they spend (its already been stated by a few other AP's that they could spend as little as $20 per visit). Find the avg attendance of AP's that visit the park per day you will still come out upside down.

    Heres how it could look.

    lets say there are an avg of 1,500 guests per day that use an annual pas enough times to where its been paid off.

    1,500 people multiplied by $125 per entrance = $187,500

    of those 1,500 people there lets use the avg of $60 for food and merch (remember this is PER PERSON) so that would look like so

    1,500 people multiplied by $60 for food and merch = $90,000 of revenue

    so we get the totall of $187,500 for the total amount disney lost on ticket sales subtracted by the $90,000 worth of food and merch spent by each AP holder and you still come up short by....

    $97,500 per day...
    Last edited by christianAdam; 10-02-2012 at 12:10 PM.
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  2. #62

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trav1Disney View Post
    I do see a small point but you also should consider some people like me will only go to eat and walk around and go on no rides and I see no profit loss there or maybe go on a ride or 2 they are not losing a lot at that point. I think if you add up the attractions rode yearly by an ap it would be pretty low


    So you`re saying that APers just go to the park to take up space, and make the turnstile and food lines longer? Who were all those people in that 2 hr Cars line, or 1 hour Space mountain, or fantasmic, or the fireworks
    Last edited by Jerryp49; 10-02-2012 at 12:18 PM.

  3. #63

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    The passes might reach a thousand dollars before long but they will not get rid of the AP program.

  4. #64

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Some of us have only a week once ayear,or every other year to get our money`s worth. Many APer`s can go daily for their $7/mon investment. Like I said earlier, I would do the same thing if I lived in Socal. Let me make a proposal. I`ll trade my season pass and the Oakland Raiders to LA if they ship Disneyland to Northern CA

  5. #65

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshnyah View Post
    The passes might reach a thousand dollars before long but they will not get rid of the AP program.
    Yep, because Disney knows it's a cash cow. That is why they expanded it to 4 tiers of passes. And then they drew in a TON of more people with the payment plan. Go play all you want now but you can pay me in small payments.

    ---------- Post added 10-02-2012 at 01:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerryp49 View Post
    Some of us have only a week once ayear,or every other year to get our money`s worth. Many APer`s can go daily for their $7/mon investment. Like I said earlier, I would do the same thing if I lived in Socal. Let me make a proposal. I`ll trade my season pass and the Oakland Raiders to LA if they ship Disneyland to Northern CA
    The weather isn't as good here as it is in SoCal. We don't have any room for it in the heart of the Bay Area, where would you put it?

  6. #66

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    We were at Disneyland the week of September 17th and we met a couple from Canada that drove 32 hours to get to Disneyland. During our conversation they told us that they saved money for a year so they could take this trip and that they were worried that they might not be able to get on 'Radiator Springs Racers' because the lines were too long. We talked about 'Fast Passes' and they admitted that during the first part of their trip they really didn't know how to take advantage of them. I felt bad for them because of how much they went through just to get to Disneyland only to be thwarted by the hordes of APers clogging up the 'Radiator Springs Racers' ride.

    The experience of the Canadian family reminded me of our trip to Disneyland this past February, 2012. We went to Disneyland under our 1990's experience and expected the crowds to be light and the lines to be manageable. We were wrong. I admit that we didn't really understand the 'Fast Pass' or 'Early Entry' system and our experience suffered greatly because of our ignorance. We left Disneyland with a sour taste in our mouths and vowed to return with a more educated outlook. As a result, our September, 2012 visit was much better due to the simple fact that we played the 'Fast Pass' game to it's fullest.

    The answer is not getting rid of the Annual Passes but to limit their effect on the non annual pass holders. APers should not be given 'Early Entry Hours', 'Fast Passes' or discounts on food and merchandise. Why? Because they have the ability of returning to the park when crowds are lower, a luxury the out of town tourist doesn't have. If only the full admission paying 'tourist' or 'local' had the ability to take advantage of 'Fast Passes' or 'Early Entry Hours' they could enjoy the park and it's attractions without having to struggle with the APers monopolizing the lines.

    I just don't understand why Disney not only hands out subsidized 'Annual Passes' and then allows the APers to use 'Fast Passes', 'Early Entry Hours' plus discounts on food and merchandise. It's like they're saying to us, the non APer, "We don't want you here.". Why is the APer given discounts on food and merchandise? It's been stated on this very thread that most APers don't really spend that much money in the park when they go. How about giving that discount to the family from Canada that saved money for a year and drove 32 hours to get to Disneyland. I think those people deserve the discount more then the APer that just visits Disneyland to pass the time.

    I'm not an expert but it just feels like Disney "cut off their nose to spite their face" with the amount of perks and discounts they hand out to the APer.

  7. #67

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trav1Disney View Post
    I do see a small point but you also should consider some people like me will only go to eat and walk around and go on no rides and I see no profit loss there or maybe go on a ride or 2 they are not losing a lot at that point. I think if you add up the attractions rode yearly by an ap it would be pretty low
    It is a loss when compared to somebody else who is willing to pay more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshnyah View Post
    The passes might reach a thousand dollars before long but they will not get rid of the AP program.
    Tokyo Disney Resort Annual Passport Adult prices:
    Two Park Passport: 80,000 ≈ $1023.51
    One Park Passport: 52,000 ≈ $665.28

    Tokyo Disney Resort also does not allow Park Hopping on the first two days of a visit.

  8. #68

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaloCS View Post
    We were at Disneyland the week of September 17th and we met a couple from Canada that drove 32 hours to get to Disneyland. During our conversation they told us that they saved money for a year so they could take this trip and that they were worried that they might not be able to get on 'Radiator Springs Racers' because the lines were too long. We talked about 'Fast Passes' and they admitted that during the first part of their trip they really didn't know how to take advantage of them. I felt bad for them because of how much they went through just to get to Disneyland only to be thwarted by the hordes of APers clogging up the 'Radiator Springs Racers' ride.

    The experience of the Canadian family reminded me of our trip to Disneyland this past February, 2012. We went to Disneyland under our 1990's experience and expected the crowds to be light and the lines to be manageable. We were wrong. I admit that we didn't really understand the 'Fast Pass' or 'Early Entry' system and our experience suffered greatly because of our ignorance. We left Disneyland with a sour taste in our mouths and vowed to return with a more educated outlook. As a result, our September, 2012 visit was much better due to the simple fact that we played the 'Fast Pass' game to it's fullest.

    The answer is not getting rid of the Annual Passes but to limit their effect on the non annual pass holders. APers should not be given 'Early Entry Hours', 'Fast Passes' or discounts on food and merchandise. Why? Because they have the ability of returning to the park when crowds are lower, a luxury the out of town tourist doesn't have. If only the full admission paying 'tourist' or 'local' had the ability to take advantage of 'Fast Passes' or 'Early Entry Hours' they could enjoy the park and it's attractions without having to struggle with the APers monopolizing the lines.

    I just don't understand why Disney not only hands out subsidized 'Annual Passes' and then allows the APers to use 'Fast Passes', 'Early Entry Hours' plus discounts on food and merchandise. It's like they're saying to us, the non APer, "We don't want you here.". Why is the APer given discounts on food and merchandise? It's been stated on this very thread that most APers don't really spend that much money in the park when they go. How about giving that discount to the family from Canada that saved money for a year and drove 32 hours to get to Disneyland. I think those people deserve the discount more then the APer that just visits Disneyland to pass the time.

    I'm not an expert but it just feels like Disney "cut off their nose to spite their face" with the amount of perks and discounts they hand out to the APer.
    I kind of touched on it in my previous post but because DLR loses profit by having so many AP holders they try and offer up as many ways as possible for them to spend money...if us AP holders figure "well since I get 20% of my meal I might as well eat here in the parks" rather than "what? no discount? I'll wait till I get home or run to subway right outside the gate"

    The reason why they don't offer it to the families that save and make that yearly trip without an AP is because that money that those families spend is all profit. They are upcharging the visitors and non-AP holder to cover the cost that they lose on the AP. It's completely backwards and upside down and it wasn't until this year I really started to notice how badly it hits people.
    "If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that"





  9. #69

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Disneylandfan View Post
    Yep, because Disney knows it's a cash cow. That is why they expanded it to 4 tiers of passes. And then they drew in a TON of more people with the payment plan. Go play all you want now but you can pay me in small payments.

    ---------- Post added 10-02-2012 at 01:39 PM ----------



    The weather isn't as good here as it is in SoCal. We don't have any room for it in the heart of the Bay Area, where would you put it?


    Livermore,Pleasanton, There was talk of building a Raiders stadium in Dublin where the old Camp Parks Army base is. Put Disneyland there instead. Gilroy, Morgan Hill has the same weather as Anaheim. Wishful thinking, it will never happen

  10. #70

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Where'd you hear it?
    Not from me. I swear.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  11. #71

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerryp49 View Post
    Livermore,Pleasanton, There was talk of building a Raiders stadium in Dublin where the old Camp Parks Army base is. Put Disneyland there instead. Gilroy, Morgan Hill has the same weather as Anaheim. Wishful thinking, it will never happen
    There isn't enough open space in the Tri-Valley area to put the DLR. Now Gilroy, sure. Plenty of open space there. But alas, it is where it is for the last 57 years.

  12. #72

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by christianAdam View Post
    If that was the case for the AP program why are they getting hit the hardest with the price increase? I don't get how if they spent as much in the parks why the price has sky rocketed. If this was their bread and butter then why do they offer up so many discounts. They are pretty much begging AP's to spend money at the resort because of the money lost on entrance.

    I think it would be safe to say that most AP holders visit the parks more than 5 days a year, most spread through out the year and not all at once.

    so lets use your calculation. I have a premium pass at $649, I have been to park a total of 9 times this year. Avg money spent on food and merch would come out to $60 per visit.

    so 9 visits would come out to DLR having to pay for 4 of them at $560
    avg spent on food and merch is $60 coming out to a total of $540

    so out of my 9 visits Disney loses a profit of.....$20

    but you have to remember the more I go the less profit Disney makes...for instance

    We are going up this weekend for my daughters birthday. so that would make my total to 10 trips; which would bring the total that Disney pays for my visit to $700. My avg expenditure still being $60 brings that total to $600

    Therefore just for my visit alone it is costing Disneyland $100 to be there.

    I'm sure if you could find out the amount of AP holders that have already been to the parks enough to pay off their pass, and avg the amount they spend (its already been stated by a few other AP's that they could spend as little as $20 per visit). Find the avg attendance of AP's that visit the park per day you will still come out upside down.

    Heres how it could look.

    lets say there are an avg of 1,500 guests per day that use an annual pas enough times to where its been paid off.

    1,500 people multiplied by $125 per entrance = $187,500

    of those 1,500 people there lets use the avg of $60 for food and merch (remember this is PER PERSON) so that would look like so

    1,500 people multiplied by $60 for food and merch = $90,000 of revenue

    so we get the totall of $187,500 for the total amount disney lost on ticket sales subtracted by the $90,000 worth of food and merch spent by each AP holder and you still come up short by....

    $97,500 per day...
    But you're still basing all your calculations on the idea that disney is paying for your visits after you have gone 5 times. This is not the case. The only thing disney is actually paying for is park operation cost which is NOT 125 a person. That number could be $20 a person for all we know. If that were the case an AP holder could go to the park 20 times and the premium AP alone would still be enough to generate a profit. Sure not as much profit as the full price guest but after the year is up, the profit probably ends up being quite similar on average. But like I said, no one knows how much the park costs to run.

    But that is the magic number we need to know. How much it cost per guest to operate the park. Not the full price of a hopper because no one would go to DL as often as an AP holder does if everyone had to pay full price each visit. So the theoretical $125 a visit that disney is "losing" was never going to be theirs in any scenario. So what little profit disney may make per AP visit is still a profit that would not be there otherwise.

    As for the increase in price, they did it because they could. Its simple economics, if you can increase prices and keep a similar demand, prices will go up.


    Ok so I found a few numbers online and I don't know for sure how accurate but lets look at them.

    It costs DL about $250,000 a day to run on average
    Lets say Dl on average has 30,000 guests out of its around 80,000 capacity

    That means that as long as every guest pays at least $9 per visit, every guest is generating a profit...

    That means an Premium AP could go to DL about 60 times, without spending a cent in the park, and still make a tiny bit of profit for disney. At approximately 66 visits, the guest will start eating profits.
    Last edited by Pinrar; 10-02-2012 at 01:35 PM.
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  13. #73

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    What an idiotic thing to do. Why would they do that? People will pay so much to get into a park to pay more for goods. Why would they stop that?

    What they should do is make the APs higher in price because there is a ton of people who would buy it regardless of price.
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  14. #74

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by kristibaer View Post
    They won't end the AP program, but I hope they thin it out. I remember when the financing began, Al Lutz had numbers that there 200k AP's and it jumped to 1m within a year. There isn't even an off season that locals used to enjoy.
    It might have INCREASED 200K to 1M due to the payment plan, but the number has been above 500K for quite some time.
    Looking through some archives, but can't seem to find any figures.

    ---------- Post added 10-02-2012 at 02:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by christianAdam View Post
    If that was the case for the AP program why are they getting hit the hardest with the price increase? I don't get how if they spent as much in the parks why the price has sky rocketed. If this was their bread and butter then why do they offer up so many discounts. They are pretty much begging AP's to spend money at the resort because of the money lost on entrance.

    I think it would be safe to say that most AP holders visit the parks more than 5 days a year, most spread through out the year and not all at once.

    so lets use your calculation. I have a premium pass at $649, I have been to park a total of 9 times this year. Avg money spent on food and merch would come out to $60 per visit.

    so 9 visits would come out to DLR having to pay for 4 of them at $560
    avg spent on food and merch is $60 coming out to a total of $540

    so out of my 9 visits Disney loses a profit of.....$20

    but you have to remember the more I go the less profit Disney makes...for instance

    We are going up this weekend for my daughters birthday. so that would make my total to 10 trips; which would bring the total that Disney pays for my visit to $700. My avg expenditure still being $60 brings that total to $600

    Therefore just for my visit alone it is costing Disneyland $100 to be there.

    I'm sure if you could find out the amount of AP holders that have already been to the parks enough to pay off their pass, and avg the amount they spend (its already been stated by a few other AP's that they could spend as little as $20 per visit). Find the avg attendance of AP's that visit the park per day you will still come out upside down.

    Heres how it could look.

    lets say there are an avg of 1,500 guests per day that use an annual pas enough times to where its been paid off.

    1,500 people multiplied by $125 per entrance = $187,500

    of those 1,500 people there lets use the avg of $60 for food and merch (remember this is PER PERSON) so that would look like so

    1,500 people multiplied by $60 for food and merch = $90,000 of revenue

    so we get the totall of $187,500 for the total amount disney lost on ticket sales subtracted by the $90,000 worth of food and merch spent by each AP holder and you still come up short by....

    $97,500 per day...
    1. Change 5 days per year to about 10.
    2. Change 1,500 AP'ers per day to about 25,000. That assumes 10 days per year, times 900,000 AP'ers, divided by 365.
    Then, you'll see what kind of revenue is being lost due to the AP Program.
    AP Program exists because it's EASIER to operate a park with one. It's not supposed to be EASY. It's the HARD that makes it great.

    Disneyland should cost an average of $50/day. $75/day for two parks. More in the Summer and holidays, less in what used to be called the "off-season," when people didn't complain about major attractions being closed for their scheduled tri-annual major refurb.
    Last edited by sediment; 10-02-2012 at 01:35 PM.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  15. #75

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    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinrar View Post
    But you're still basing all your calculations on the idea that disney is paying for your visits after you have gone 5 times. This is not the case. The only thing disney is actually paying for is park operation cost which is NOT 125 a person. That number could be $20 a person for all we know. If that were the case an AP holder could go to the park 20 times and the premium AP alone would still be enough to generate a profit. Sure not as much profit as the full price guest but after the year is up, the profit probably ends up being quite similar on average. But like I said, no one knows how much the park costs to run.

    But that is the magic number we need to know. How much it cost per guest to operate the park. Not the full price of a hopper because no one would go to DL as often as an AP holder does if everyone had to pay full price each visit. So the theoretical $125 a visit that disney is "losing" was never going to be theirs in any scenario. So what little profit disney may make per AP visit is still a profit that would not be there otherwise.

    As for the increase in price, they did it because they could. Its simple economics, if you can increase prices and keep a similar demand, prices will go up.
    So you don't think the rise in daily attendance drives up the amount it cost the park in it's daily operations? espcially when 60% of them are AP holders.

    higher attendance = higher cost in park operation

    but if 60% of those attending were AP holders who have gone more than 5 times then disney eats how much that entrance into the park was but it still has to keep up the cost of park operations due to the swell in attendance.

    I factor in the "5 times" because for a Premium Annual Pass the cost is $649 whereas a 1 day park hopper is $125 and parking is $15 so $140 (amount for a 1day park hopper and parking) X's 5 trips = $700 which is more than the cost of a Premium AP. The cheaper the AP the less amount of trips you need to make for it to pay for itself.

    Here's the break down

    So-Cal Select = $269 so one would have to go only twice for the AP to pay for itself at $125 per trip and $15 for parking.
    So-Ca = $329 so by your third visit your AP has more than paid for itself at $125 per ticket and $15 for parking
    Deluxe = $469 so again by your fourth visit your AP has more than paid for itself at $125 per ticket and $15 for parking.
    Premium = $649 by your fifth visit your AP has more than paid for itself at $125 per ticket and free parking at another $15

    with the amount of crowding and the AP membership lying around the 1 million mark I could almost promise you the cost per guest to operate the park is far more than it should be.
    "If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that"





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