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  1. #76

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    But anxiety is something that is very common. Just about everyday you'll see kids crying before a ride because they are scared. I've seen bawling children on rides ranging from Ghost Galaxy to Snow White. It's not something I'm super proud of, but I used to cry when Monstro would "eat" us on Storybook Land. There are also plenty of teens and adults that behave very anxiously before thrill rides. I don't think it would be realistic to ask Disney to make sure everyone is completely reassured before beginning a ride. In the Disney handbook SAFETY comes before COURTESY, SHOW, and EFFICIENCY.

    ---------- Post added 10-08-2012 at 06:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Not really. If this rider had panicked enough to jump out of the sled as it was moving, it could have been just as fatal as the other incidents where people died.
    But the OP has been on the Matterhorn before. She wasn't afraid of the ride. Why would she jump out? If she had been begging to be let off the ride and they sent her through anyways then there would be a big, big problem. But that wasn't the case, her concern was with the seat belt and that concern was addressed before the ride started.

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    I've worked in jobs where you have a lot of contact with people . . . you always *respond* when somebody asks you a question, and double that for when you need help. Not talking to customers that are screaming for help is repugnant, and something that should get somebody written up, it not fired.
    I don't know what jobs you've had, but operating a ride is very different from most customer service positions. If I'm selling popcorn at the movie theater and someone is screaming for help, the worst thing that can happen from me leaving my position is maybe the line gets kind of long. If the loader at Matterhorn leaves their position, you have the very real possibility of an accident occurring during loading/unloading.

  2. #77

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    The only thing wrong here is that MAYBE the CM should have told the guest that he/she would be right with her. The ride should not have been stopped.

    I can't wrap my head around what the fuss is about. The car was not dispatched dangerously, it never passed the belt check without the seatbelt fastened. The same thing happens on RSR for goodness sake, you get in, move up to the belt check, and are then dispatched.

    In this case the guest overreacted. The system worked. Safety overreactions like this are the reasons we are getting raised bars on Alice and padding on everything.

    Maybe to prevent things like this from happening in the future CMs should bubble wrap guests to the vehicles before it moves an inch.

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    I wasn't referring to what their actual roles were. Those are irrelevant in this situation. What matters is how the rider perceived those roles which is a fact that was stated in the original post. It is also a fact that was stated in the original post that the workers did nothing to correct the rider's misconception and left this girl with a feeling that the ride was going to take off without her securely strapped in. That is a customer service failure that should never have been allowed to happen.
    And I'm sorry but this is just wrong. In no instance does the rider get (or should they get) to set the safety standard. Lets say the belt was fastened and the rider was still freaking out, in that case the whole ride doesn't need to be stopped right that instance... the issues can be addressed two seconds later at the belt check. Stopping the whole ride in motion can often be MORE dangerous overall.
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  3. #78

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    We also don't have any facts that say the workers did actually perform their job and reassure that rider that the seat belt situation would be taken care of.
    I'm not a lawyer, but isn't this related to "innocent until proven guilty"? Absence of "facts" that the CM did their job doesn't mean they were guilty of not doing it. Right?

    I also want to point out that the C in CM does not stand for "counselor".
    Last edited by Mojave; 10-08-2012 at 05:27 PM.

  4. #79

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    Quote Originally Posted by clippers6 View Post

    I don't know what jobs you've had, but operating a ride is very different from most customer service positions. If I'm selling popcorn at the movie theater and someone is screaming for help, the worst thing that can happen from me leaving my position is maybe the line gets kind of long. If the loader at Matterhorn leaves their position, you have the very real possibility of an accident occurring during loading/unloading.
    Uh, an accident almost did occur, might have occured, had the OP not been able to unlock her seatbelt. Certainly, the CM could have alerted somebody down the line to the problem. Why check safety belts with a flashlight if the CM won't acknowledge/care about guests who are having problems?

    ---------- Post added 10-09-2012 at 01:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post

    We got to the second stop where they check the belts with flashlights and mine was still jammed up. This whole time, my friend and I were frantically yelling to the CMs that I couldn't get my belt to work. It was somehow jammed on the side and I couldn't get it moving. There were about four CMs there.

    ...and the vehicle moved again, right to the mouth of the mountain before the first hill. Of course I started panicking at this point. I finally got my belt on, and the CM just nodded.

    What the heck. My friend, after the ride, said that she was terrified they were going to send me up the hill without a belt on, because none of the CMs seemed at all concerned I was having trouble and none of them said anything. All of them ignored us when we were yelling there was a problem with the belt.
    So for those who don't think the four CMs (some armed with flashlights) did anything wrong, why have CMs even checking seat belts at this point if they don't do anything about it?

    If the last CM (the dude that just nods) is all that is needed, why employ four other CMs to check safety belts?

    I answer my own question:

    The second checkpoint with the four CMs armed with flashlights are part of a redundant safety system. Should the guy at the end who dispatches the bobsled mess up, hopefully these upstanding young men and women armed with flashlights will have caught the problem as vice versa.

    It's called redundancy. In this case, one layer of redundancy failed. Should the OP not have fastened her seat belt, the last CM (let's say he a psycho who is disgruntled) could have dispatched the bobsled without a care in the world and the OP would ride Matterhorn without a safety belt.

    Note that emotional distress occurred here when the guest freaks out because he/she sees a layer of redundancy fail.

    The CMs with flashlights could have signaled to stop the bobsleds, wouldn't mean the ride is 101, simply making sure the dispatcher doesn't push the all clear button while they work on the safety belt. So, everybody has to wait 25 seconds longer, big friggin' deal to keep somebody alive.

  5. #80

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    Uh, an accident almost did occur, might have occured, had the OP not been able to unlock her seatbelt. Certainly, the CM could have alerted somebody down the line to the problem. Why check safety belts with a flashlight if the CM won't acknowledge/care about guests who are having problems?
    If not getting your seatbelt clicked until the final safety check is considered an "almost accident", I bet they have "almost accidents" a thousand times a day.

    And since everybody is trying to claim "facts" in this case, what facts do we have that say the final CM wouldn't have stopped the ride if they hadn't seen that the OP had the seatbelt fastened and acknowledged that?

    Also, why is it necessary to have a final seatbelt check if the first two CM stops are supposed to have checked them already? This is a rhetorical question.

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojave View Post
    I'm not a lawyer, but isn't this related to "innocent until proven guilty"? Absence of "facts" that the CM did their job doesn't mean they were guilty of not doing it. Right?

    I also want to point out that the C in CM does not stand for "counselor".
    For there to be a lawsuit/case, there has to be damages. Now . . . there are sadly all sorts of ways that guests can get hurt in a theme park. You can get a broken bone, or you can be hanging upside for three hours on a ride that is broken. Certainly, the guest in question did not receive a physical injury, yet the fear of physical injury is in itself psychologically upsetting.

    So, you could say that damages occurred to the guest.

    If the guest was upset, or even very upset, should Disneyland have done something to compensate this guest? Or, looking at it from another viewpoint, should Disneyland have done something to prevent this guest's damages? If a guest has a legitimate concern about bodily harm on an attraction, should the CM take the time to answer the question, or temporarily stop the ride?

    A reasonable person would say, "yes".

    Does Disney give the CMs working the Matterhorn training on what to do if their flashlight spies an unbuckled seat belt? Of course. What about if a guest screams, "help! My seat belt is stuck!" One could reasonably conclude that this is just the sort of breakdown in safety that the CMs with flashlights are looking for, and they should have taken some sort of action which would include notifying somebody.

  7. #82

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    Uh, an accident almost did occur, might have occured, had the OP not been able to unlock her seatbelt. Certainly, the CM could have alerted somebody down the line to the problem. Why check safety belts with a flashlight if the CM won't acknowledge/care about guests who are having problems?
    Um, no. The dispatch CM can tell which belts are buckled and which are not on his control panel. Had the OP still not had been able to get their belt on before dispatch the CM would have dealt with it. The OP says that the CM nodded to her once she finally got her belt on which indicated that he was fully aware of the situation and monitoring it. The bobsled can't leave the station unless all the seat belts are buckled. It is pretty over dramatic to say an accident "almost" occurred here.

    ---------- Post added 10-08-2012 at 07:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    For there to be a lawsuit/case, there has to be damages. Now . . . there are sadly all sorts of ways that guests can get hurt in a theme park. You can get a broken bone, or you can be hanging upside for three hours on a ride that is broken. Certainly, the guest in question did not receive a physical injury, yet the fear of physical injury is in itself psychologically upsetting.

    So, you could say that damages occurred to the guest.

    If the guest was upset, or even very upset, should Disneyland have done something to compensate this guest? Or, looking at it from another viewpoint, should Disneyland have done something to prevent this guest's damages? If a guest has a legitimate concern about bodily harm on an attraction, should the CM take the time to answer the question, or temporarily stop the ride?

    A reasonable person would say, "yes".
    Are you seriously suggesting a person should be able to sue because they were upset?

  8. #83

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojave View Post
    If not getting your seatbelt clicked until the final safety check is considered an "almost accident", I bet they have "almost accidents" a thousand times a day.
    Really? Are you stating that the second check CMs are letting thousands of guests ride without seat belts buckled? Aren't the four CMs with flashlights in the best position to check this? If this is true, then I would conclude the second safety check folks aren't doing their job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojave View Post

    And since everybody is trying to claim "facts" in this case, what facts do we have that say the final CM wouldn't have stopped the ride if they hadn't seen that the OP had the seatbelt fastened and acknowledged that?
    I don't anybody notified the final CM that the OP was having a problem with her belt. He might have noticed the commotion with a screaming guest, but he could have gotten distracted. He nodded, but what he knew and when he knew it isn't known.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojave View Post
    Also, why is it necessary to have a final seatbelt check if the first two CM stops are supposed to have checked them already? This is a rhetorical question.
    Yes it is. Your point?

    Because it is a rhetorical question, the answer should be obvious: redundancy of safety checks. It appears that one layer of safety failed . . . or at the very least, the CMs failed to address the guest's panic.

    ---------- Post added 10-09-2012 at 02:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by clippers6 View Post
    Um, no. The dispatch CM can tell which belts are buckled and which are not on his control panel. Had the OP still not had been able to get their belt on before dispatch the CM would have dealt with it. The OP says that the CM nodded to her once she finally got her belt on which indicated that he was fully aware of the situation and monitoring it.
    You do realize that everything has a failure rate? This is why NASA builds redundancy into critical systems. The final CM's failure rate might be small, but it is real. An average CM might one in a hundred thousand times be distracted an not noticed an error message. Happens to even professional airplane pilots.

    Not sure what the nod was about. You are inferring communication between the four CMs with flashlights and the finale CM. Given how rude and uncommunicative the four CMs with flashlights were, I'm not convinced they passed along the message at all.

    ---------- Post added 10-09-2012 at 02:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by clippers6 View Post
    Are you seriously suggesting a person should be able to sue because they were upset?
    Guests have filed lawsuits over psychological distress. In this case, the guest and a friend were upset, i.e. afraid they would ride the Matterhorn without a safety belt and they could be killed. If they believed this, then they could have momentarily experience a large amount of distress.

    Does this incident deserve a lawsuit?

    If the guest complained to City Hall would you as a guest relations CM done anything, i.e. a free return ticket?

    Guests who were unaware of "Gay Days" at Disneyland get a refunded ticket if this "upsets" them, (so they can return on another day), I would think that being afraid of being killed on the Matterhorn is more terrifying that being around openly LGBT people, and deserves at least a free day's admission and an apology. If the guest is an AP, then maybe a free meal or two.
    Last edited by chesirecat; 10-08-2012 at 06:25 PM.

  9. #84

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    You do realize that everything has a failure rate? This is why NASA builds redundancy into critical systems. The final CM's failure rate might be small, but it is real. An average CM might one in a hundred thousand times be distracted an not noticed an error message. Happens to even professional airplane pilots.

    Not sure what the nod was about. You are inferring communication between the four CMs with flashlights and the finale CM. Given how rude and uncommunicative the four CMs with flashlights were, I'm not convinced they passed along the message at all.
    There is plenty of redundancy. More often than not everyone is probably buckled in safely by the time they pass the first safety check CM. The OP said she and her friend didn't really panic until they reached the dispatch position. At dispatch the CM has the control panel with indicators and even if he someone did not notice one of the indicator lights were off, the system serves as the final fail safe as it will not let him dispatch. Everything worked as it was supposed to. Do you realize how much downtime there would be if they had to e-stop every time there was someone that couldn't get their seat belt on before the first safety check? That's why the dispatch CM and indicator system exists.

    Also, I have no idea where you got that there are 4 CMs with flashlights. Usually only the safety check CM would have one.

    ---------- Post added 10-08-2012 at 07:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    Guests have filed lawsuits over psychological distress. In this case, the guest and a friend were upset, i.e. afraid they would ride the Matterhorn without a safety belt and they could be killed. If they believed this, then they could have momentarily experience a large amount of distress.

    Does this incident deserve a lawsuit?

    If the guest complained to City Hall would you as a guest relations CM done anything, i.e. a free return ticket?

    Guests who were unaware of "Gay Days" at Disneyland get a refunded ticket if this "upsets" them, (so they can return on another day), I would think that being afraid of being killed on the Matterhorn is more terrifying that being around openly LGBT people, and deserves at least a free day's admission and an apology. If the guest is an AP, then maybe a free meal or two.
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  10. #85

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    If a guest is panicked, they introduce a safety risk to themselves and the rest of the riders. As was stated above, a panicking rider could jump out of the sled prior to dispatch or injure another rider by flailing around. It is up to the CM to identify that a guest is having an emergency. If there is no emergency, a CM should certainly reassure the guest that things are okay.

    Looking at the added netting and bumpers on the Jungle Cruise thread, you can see why we shouldn't rush to judge the guest - or necessarily pile on a CM over one incident.

    In that case, there is the eventual admission that these measures were added after several incidents of guests being pinched or falling into the water or becoming caught between the boat and dock. Presumably, there are at least two CMs unloading a boat and one at the stern during this procedure. Still, there were accidents. And it was addressed.

    If these things aren't reported, they may not be investigated. As it is with commercial air travel, a sharp customer may just spot something that a harried flight crew could miss. And that may delay a flight, but it may also save hundreds of lives. Automated safety is a companion to the power of human observation. And even then, bad things can happen.

    I'm with the OP. Safety and guest comfort should never be shrugged-off by a Disney employee.
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  11. #86

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    She has a witness that can corroborate her facts. I have yet to see any posts that say that there is no way that the worker would not have told her that the seat belt situation will be resolved at the next station. That is a pretty strong case that her concerns were pretty much ignored.
    What 'witness'? BTW... My friend right now says I'm actually a Federal Judge. You should believe me, because I just said my friend here says so..

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    We also have the fact that there was a witness to the lack of performance of the Disney worker. We also don't have any facts that say the workers did actually perform their job and reassure that rider that the seat belt situation would be taken care of.
    No we don't - because the people in this thread don't KNOW what the specific performance of those positions are. They PRESUME.

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Since I am trained in the field of law, I know that a plaintiff's testimony with the supporting testimony of a second witness is much more reliable than no evidence presented on the side of the defendant.
    No evidence presented by the defendant.. you mean the people not represented AT ALL in this thread? My god.. this is beyond comical. By creating a one-sided story, you argue it's more credible? I've had some wth moments before reading some of these threads of late.. but I don't think anyone can top that.

    ---------- Post added 10-08-2012 at 11:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    I wasn't referring to what their actual roles were. Those are irrelevant in this situation
    No, they are everything in this situation when we are talking about ride safety and ride operation. Which apparently you thought was severe enough to suggest the CMs should be fired.

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    What matters is how the rider perceived those roles which is a fact that was stated in the original post
    The riders PRESUMPTION of the different ride operator positions means nothing to the actual job definitions.

    You have to be in a personal injury practice...

    ---------- Post added 10-08-2012 at 11:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    I answer my own question:

    The second checkpoint with the four CMs armed with flashlights are part of a redundant safety system. Should the guy at the end who dispatches the bobsled mess up, hopefully these upstanding young men and women armed with flashlights will have caught the problem as vice versa.

    It's called redundancy. In this case, one layer of redundancy failed. Should the OP not have fastened her seat belt, the last CM (let's say he a psycho who is disgruntled) could have dispatched the bobsled without a care in the world and the OP would ride Matterhorn without a safety belt.
    So chesirecat are you versed in the ride operations guide for the new Matterhorn? Are you trained to operate the attraction in all it's stations?

    If not, why are we acting like we know better than the people who actually are trained to run it.
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  12. #87

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    Flynn, you're a nice (and fresh) voice of reason!


  13. #88

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    Really? Are you stating that the second check CMs are letting thousands of guests ride without seat belts buckled? Aren't the four CMs with flashlights in the best position to check this? If this is true, then I would conclude the second safety check folks aren't doing their job.
    I said a thousand, not "thousands" and, my fault, I didn't specify that I meant the entire resort, not just the Matterhorn. Still, I'll grant that might be a slight exaggeration. I am only going on personal experience. The point is that only having your seat belt finally clicked at the third checkpoint is not an "almost accident".

    It's impossible to always have your seat belt clicked at the first check point. (based on riding the old cars - haven't ridden the new ones) The belt might be hanging over the side, be wet and it slips as you grab it; the belt might have been on a child and needs to be extended; the belt might be on the floor under your foot; the belt may be twisted; you may have to check on your younger sibling or child riding in their seat before you buckle in - any number of reasons why you wouldn't be buckled in by the first or second check point. This happens to me regularly when I only click in at the second checkpoint or between the second and third. I just don't panic like the OP did because I've ridden the Matterhorn a million times (exaggeration, sorry) and I know that everything is not dealt with at the first checkpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    Because it is a rhetorical question, the answer should be obvious: redundancy of safety checks. It appears that one layer of safety failed . . . or at the very least, the CMs failed to address the guest's panic.
    It's rhetorical because we are both arguing that redundancy is important. The reason I made the point is because you seem to be arguing that missing the first or second layer of checks is a failure of the system. I'm saying it isn't. I'm saying missing the first or second is not even a failure at those points. The system collectively must have all guests buckled in before dispatch, not have all guests buckled in at the first check point, then double and triple checked. It's only a failure if someone makes it through to launch without their seat belt buckled.

    At each step, if a guest has crept through unbuckled, the system fixes that problem. This is different from redundancy with NASA or an airplane where an engine can go out and the craft keeps flying. That redundancy doesn't fix the broken engine (the seat belt), it makes sure the entire vehicle can continue without that engine (the seat belt). The Matterhorn redundancy is different. The problem must be fixed - the seat belt has to be buckled.

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    I would have been terrified if I'd had the OP's experience, but it sounds like the system worked correctly and she was never in real danger. Not knowing the whole situation, I can't tell whether the CMs were wrong or not--maybe they didn't have time to explain the system while performing their duties; maybe they couldn't hear or understand the OP and her friend; maybe there were so many of them there that they each assumed someone else would respond; maybe they're lazy; or maybe they're evil people who secretly delight in inducing panic attacks in Disney guests. Who knows?

    The big question for me is whether there's a way to let all riders know the way the checkpoints are set up so they don't panic when they can't figure out their seatbelts and the ride moves past the first checkpoint(s). Maybe a sign or announcement at the beginning saying "Please buckle your seatbelt. The CM at the final checkpoint will assist you if you're unable to buckle it." And a big sign for Final Checkpoint.

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    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    Quote Originally Posted by clippers6 View Post
    But anxiety is something that is very common. Just about everyday you'll see kids crying before a ride because they are scared. I've seen bawling children on rides ranging from Ghost Galaxy to Snow White. It's not something I'm super proud of, but I used to cry when Monstro would "eat" us on Storybook Land. There are also plenty of teens and adults that behave very anxiously before thrill rides. I don't think it would be realistic to ask Disney to make sure everyone is completely reassured before beginning a ride. In the Disney handbook SAFETY comes before COURTESY, SHOW, and EFFICIENCY.
    There's a difference between a child crying because they are afraid of Monstro and an adult showing anxiety because the safety belt that is supposed to keep them in the ride doesn't seem to be working. If safety is supposed to come before anything else, it would seem even more imperative that a CM should be at least verbally addressing that.

    And again, there were ways the CMs could have addressed it without leaving their positions. The loader can't leave their position. The guy walking past my sled with his flashlight is walking past the sled and looking at guests! He isn't "leaving his position" if he asks what is going on or verbally reassures a guest the situation will be sorted out.

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