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  1. #16

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    I agree that ECVs should use the regular line, but this is difficult with switchbacks and such; however, use of ECV does not guarrantee short lines. I think abuse of ECVs means lines SHOULD be longer. Let them wait longer and longer. If the regular line is 30 minutes, let them wait 30 minutes.

    The reason I think more people are using ECVs is the technology gotten better and cheaper. More availability of these tools are improving the life of the disabled. Thus, you can't expect less people to use them. Also, Disneyland isn't exactly an uncrowded place.

    I agree with your solution of limiting the attending guests to 2; however, there was never any guarantee of short lines for ECV or the disabled.

  2. #17

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by dougeebear View Post
    Because requiring proof of a disability violates the ADA laws.
    Quote Originally Posted by KellyMcG86 View Post
    I wasn't aware. Thank you for letting me know. I guess that one is out of the running for options, then!
    Actually, it's HIPAA laws.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  3. #18

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    I once argued that people in ECVs should have to wait the same amount of time it would take for a "regular" guest in the queue line. (30 min wait? 30 mins off to the side). Fair is fair and we should strive to be equal, right?

    But then some argued that that wasn't fair because some in ECVs were in pain and long waits were too much to handle.

    You're going to a theme park and long waits are painful? Time to re-evaluate your choice in entertainment.

  4. #19

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by monster heck View Post
    You're going to a theme park and long waits are painful? Time to re-evaluate your choice in entertainment.
    So... because they are in pain if they have to wait too long, they shouldn't be allowed to go to a theme park?
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  5. #20

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    I wonder why long waits in ECVs are painful. Is it any different than just sitting down doing nothing? There should be no difference. I recommend people in ECV get an iPad. Pass the time with some game playing or internet surfing.

  6. #21

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    limiting the attending guests to 2; however, there was never any guarantee of short lines for ECV or the disabled.
    The only problem with this is if the handicapped person has small children and the group can't be broken up.

    I think the best solution is for the worker at the entrance to the ride note the current time and the estimated standby time for the attraction and then issue a pass with an appropriate return time. That way it ensures that everyone is waiting roughly the same amount of time.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  7. #22

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Actually, it's HIPAA laws.
    Actually, it's the ADA. For mobility devices like an ECV, 5 USC 35.137(c)(2) is the statute at issue. It allows them to seek proof, but they must accept a verbal declaration of disability as adequate proof. HIPAA regulates the dissemination of health records by regulated entities. It doesn't prohibit anyone from asking you for them. Yes, I'm a lawyer.

    So ECV users are now complaining that there are too many people using ECVs in the ECV lines? All is as South Park has predicted...

  8. #23

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    The only problem with this is if the handicapped person has small children and the group can't be broken up.

    I think the best solution is for the worker at the entrance to the ride note the current time and the estimated standby time for the attraction and then issue a pass with an appropriate return time. That way it ensures that everyone is waiting roughly the same amount of time.
    The limiting of the attending guests to 2 means the rest of the party must wait in the regular line to meet up with the handicapped person. Usually kids are not counted regardless so this is a nonexistent problem.

    I would be in favor of a separate return time for the handicapped, but it there is still a loading wait time that cannot be alleviated. Also, many rides already has Fastpass, which the handicapped should be required to use. Thus the logistics for handling this is complicated and not easy to resolve.

  9. #24

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtfox View Post
    Actually, it's the ADA. For mobility devices like an ECV, 5 USC 35.137(c)(2) is the statute at issue. It allows them to seek proof, but they must accept a verbal declaration of disability as adequate proof. HIPAA regulates the dissemination of health records by regulated entities. It doesn't prohibit anyone from asking you for them. Yes, I'm a lawyer.

    So ECV users are now complaining that there are too many people using ECVs in the ECV lines? All is as South Park has predicted...
    So, was the California DMV violating any laws when they asked me for medical substantiation for a temporary disabled parking plaquard? What about Southern California Edison, who also asked for medical substantiation when I sought a baseline allocation adjustment (for medical equipment)? For the record, I fully understand both organization's needs for justification and gladly provided it.
    "She's taking everything. She's taking the house, she's taking the kid, she's taking the dog. IT'S NOT EVEN HER DOG. IT'S MY DOG! SHE'S TAKING . . . MY DOG!"
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  10. #25

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    The GAC has problems with its system just like FP. Yes, there is a limit to how many people are allowed to use a GAC, the max is 6 (Person with the pass + 5). Some cast members enforce it, others don't. While i've never tried to go over the limit, i've seen it happen many times. There are also different types of passes given, some don't allow you to hop the whole line, but let you bypass certain parts of the line, such as stairs like on Indy or California Screamin.

    On my last trip my party included my grandma who rode an ECV and my Aunt who uses a GAC but does not always require a wheelchair. We only had more than 6 people for a bit, as while always presented both of the GAC's we had within our party, most CMs didn't even look at both. I can see how from the outside it looks bad on my group's part, but we were technically following rules.

    IMO I think the system they are using at RSR is one that should be used park wide and ENFORCED when they start enforcing FP return times. Instead of getting right in line you receive a handwritten FP with a return time.

    When I go with people who don't require a GAC or ECV I wait in lines, so I understand both sides. I agree that its getting horribly abused, I was shocked to see the lines for Special Assistance ALL NIGHT during One More Disney Day. (I'm not saying everyone abuses it, I just never would have imagined those lines at EVERY attraction in the park) I think a much better system is needed

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  11. #26

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    They had a lawsuit in New York a while back about disabled locations and companions at the theater-- a person in a wheelchair was asked to sit alone without their companion. The resolution was that a person is now able to reserve two places in disabled seating: one for the wheelchair and one for the companion. Total of two. Are there larger parties that come to Broadway shows? Sure. Two will be in that wheelchair area; the rest will be elsewhere.

    I think that's reasonable--and as mentioned, if it's a special case like a child with cancer who is traveling with their whole family, exceptions can always be made.

    In terms of limiting ECV patrons' access to the e-tickets/thrill rides...I don't think that is necessary. A 16 year old with cancer or cystic fibrosis, a 40 year old woman with fibro, an older adult who just can't manage all the walking...they might need an ECV but there's no reason why any of those folks can't do Space Mountain, etc. And just by looking at them there might not be any indication they're sick.

    A friend of a friend had a daughter who passed away from cancer at 9 - she needed to travel in a stroller because she couldn't handle the walking, but they got her a season pass to her local amusement park. Riding those roller coasters was one of the things that allowed her to be a kid, forget about her treatments and just have fun. For an adult with a chronic illness or injury it might be just as important to have an escape at Disneyland. I wouldn't want that to be taken from anyone.

    I still think using the regular line/Fastpass would end all the issues. It could always be set up the way, say, Buzz Lightyear or Haunted Mansion are -- ie, you go through the regular line and then have a special loading area or assistance at the vehicle entry/exit. It would limit the use of the GAC entrance to those who really can't be in line, for instance, maybe a person who is very autistic or allergic to sunlight.

  12. #27

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Live and let live I guess. I'm not going to get all bent out of shape over someone, wheelchair bound or otherwise, who can get on a ride 10-15 minuets before me. Is it fair? Maybe not, but who are we to judge anyone?
    That being said, perhaps the CM’s should take care to enforce the policy that they have written to ensure such abuse is not happening.

    Also, I feel for the Customer of Size that cannot fit through, or on certain rides. It is a simple fact that people in North America are bigger than they have ever been and while there is a lot of personal responsibility that goes along with this, our society does very little to curb the causes of obesity short of public humiliation.

  13. #28

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    I see the abuse totally backfiring on busy days. The handicap entrance lines are longer than the regular queues, but since the abusers think they're getting something the rest of us aren't, they'll wait anyway. Fine.

    As far as the man who couldn't fit through the turnstiles on BTMRR, Disney is working on that with the RFID system which may eliminate many turnstiles. While I may be personally disgusted that they've had to concede in this way to avoid even more lawsuits, it should cut down on complaints and increase guest satisfaction.
    Please consider the environment before printing useless emails

  14. #29

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    I still think using the regular line/Fastpass would end all the issues. It could always be set up the way, say, Buzz Lightyear or Haunted Mansion are -- ie, you go through the regular line and then have a special loading area or assistance at the vehicle entry/exit. It would limit the use of the GAC entrance to those who really can't be in line, for instance, maybe a person who is very autistic or allergic to sunlight.
    I think there is too much of the entitlement mentality that is becoming acceptable when you say someone with autism that doesn't like crowds or someone that is allergic to sunlight... I'm sorry but if you can't take the sunlight or you can't be around noisy crowded places then you really shouldn't be going to Disneyland or any other amusement park. Should we next set up special places on the beach where no one is allowed to play and have fun because it might upset someone that doesn't like noise? Should we set up large canopies that cover the entire beach so people that can't take sunlight can still go there?

    I'm sorry, but life isn't fair... we aren't all able to deal with the world as it is, but it doesn't mean that everyone has to change the world to suit a few that can't deal with it... at some point parents need to simply accept that their kid isn't like other kids and change what they do as a family to have fun instead of trying to force the world to change to them... I have a daughter that as very poor coordination should I sue the local school and force them to allow her to play basketball when she can't dribble a ball?

  15. #30

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    I just returned from my vacation to DLR (10/17-10/23. 2012. Full report coming soon in the report section). I did however want to follow up on the abuse of ecv's at DLR.


    A little background- My family and I have been going at least once a year (Usually multiple times a year) since my oldest son was born in 1993. This continued until our last trip in 2009. In 2010 & 2011 life and the real estate market (my profession) got in the way and we were not able to make it until this last week. My wife has had to use an ECV since her back surgery in 2001, I have had to use one since 2008 due to a medical problem that makes it impossible for me to walk or stand for extended periods. From 2001-2009 there was never a problem with ECV's or wheelchairs, and I did not notice much if any abuse of the system. This year however was a totally different story.


    I was literally shocked at the amount of people using the ECV's and worse, the amount of people "with" them......


    I counted on most rides (especially the popular ones like Space Mountain, Thunder Mountain, Haunted Mansion, Pirates and more) groups of 5-10 people waiting in the accessible lines with only 1 person in a wheelchair/ecv. Space Mountain (Ghost Galaxy) was the worst where I counted a group of 16 people all in the same group and only 1 person with them on an ecv, and the ecv was a rental.


    And while I understand and dont have a problem having to wait in a line like everyone else (as long as the line is accessible and we can stay in our chairs/ecv's while waiting) having 16 people all in a same group with 1 ecv is just plain wrong. Even the cast members that I spoke with (and I spoke with quite a few) were all very frustrated with the whole thing.


    Anybody that is disabled in a wheelchair or ECV or needs use of any one of those can have a group of more then 6 accompany them into the ride.

    ---------- Post added 10-24-2012 at 12:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas998 View Post
    I think there is too much of the entitlement mentality that is becoming acceptable when you say someone with autism that doesn't like crowds or someone that is allergic to sunlight... I'm sorry but if you can't take the sunlight or you can't be around noisy crowded places then you really shouldn't be going to Disneyland or any other amusement park. Should we next set up special places on the beach where no one is allowed to play and have fun because it might upset someone that doesn't like noise? Should we set up large canopies that cover the entire beach so people that can't take sunlight can still go there?

    I'm sorry, but life isn't fair... we aren't all able to deal with the world as it is, but it doesn't mean that everyone has to change the world to suit a few that can't deal with it... at some point parents need to simply accept that their kid isn't like other kids and change what they do as a family to have fun instead of trying to force the world to change to them... I have a daughter that as very poor coordination should I sue the local school and force them to allow her to play basketball when she can't dribble a ball?

    but yet you think it's silly that a actor in a wheelchair should not act on stage in the Aladdin show..

    So if a disabled mom with her group of 9 want to ride splash mountain, so let them be! the only time i see abuse of the wheelchairs an ECV is teenagers that think it's cool and funny to rent one so they get to the front of the lines.. other then that i feel everyone else has a legit reason
    Last edited by Poisonedapples; 10-24-2012 at 11:35 AM.

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