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  1. #46

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by dougeebear View Post
    Because requiring proof of a disability violates the ADA laws.
    While this is true, the FAA and airlines are allowed to ask for certain documentation in certain circumstances (I'm still in research mode on this one). It would take a huge act to allow Disney to start asking for documentation.

    I am for it. If you have to show it to your local DMV, and in ceratin situations on a plane, I am wondering if Disney could be one of the first private bodies to require
    documentation. I only say this as an advocate of ppl in genuine need. It would greatly reduce what we are seeing now at all themeparks.

    ---------- Post added 10-24-2012 at 04:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    Live and let live I guess. I'm not going to get all bent out of shape over someone, wheelchair bound or otherwise, who can get on a ride 10-15 minuets before me. Is it fair? Maybe not, but who are we to judge anyone?
    Many of us, myself and household included, don't get bent out of shape for ourselves. I hope you understand the concept of advocacy.


    Anyway, the new system will help eliminate some problems, and I am sure Disney is working on others as we speak. It may not be fast enough for some of us, but I am sure it will be fixed.

    ---------- Post added 10-24-2012 at 04:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas998 View Post
    And why do you think it only the teenagers that are abusing the system? I've known people that were full grown adults boasting of how they could game the system at Disney to get ahead of the line... .
    ITA.
    I saw more adults on Friday September 28th, 2012 at 10am-1130am at the rental place near Anaheim Plaza committing abuse than anyone who may be a teen. I was floored at what I saw. The blatant abuse, the full-on "look, it works and pays to cheat the system" attitude was there in more cases than not. My SO said that we should set up an ECV rental company from the back of a van on Harbor (it was his sarcastic joke).


    This was the moment I knew there really was a problem and it wasn't just that there are more legit handicapped ppl on earth now (there is, but a diff issue), it's that there are families and groups that rent 1 or more vehicles and then procede to the gates. While staring in disbelief, one lady told me "it works". She was already having the time of her life. I know some ppl need to rent them, fine. But I know that most were abusers who want GAC and to not have to walk the parks.

  2. #47

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Actually, it's HIPAA laws.
    I am very, very familiar with HIPAA, and I know that generally a doctor's note is not a violation. Maybe it is, though, in the circumstance of needing one for rental equipment? However a note saying you require the use of equipment would reveal no more information about your condition than saying you need it in the first place, and obviously Disney shouldn't be making a list of renters public, so I don't see how it would violate HIPAA as long as they aren't sharing medical information beyond the minimum of what they need to confirm there is a disability requiring equipment (which is legal information to share if the patient is voluntarily renting). That being said, I am not at all familiar with ADA laws, so this is probably all moot anyway!

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  3. #48

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    This is the mentality I mentioned above ". Go to a location one day while you are at the parks. They do brisk business. Observe. Take mental notes. I had no intention of seeing what I saw, but having just read Al's article days before and/or seeing many threads, I did some quick observational research near my hotel.
    Link subject to change (source of txt below)...

    Testimonials


    September 13, 2012

    I must say, for a guy with ZERO experience in the department of scooters you folks got me what I needed and for that I couldn't be happier. We had my mom and dad fly in with us so they could enjoy the parks with their grandkids. They know absolutely nothing about these either, but with the walking involved with the parks we just couldn't risk it. interupting 6 kids while visiting Magic Kingdom was something I wanted, AT ALL COST, to avoid.........And yes I did say SIX kids!
    You guys really did help to make the trip the absolute best it possibly could have been. The parents were only going to do Magic Kingdom with us but having the scooters made it possible to do them all. Thanks again I really appreciate how great your company was.

    Timmons Landry

    It seems to me, many ppl are renting just to keep up w/ abusers. This makes the issue worse. Also, some ppl do it out of laziness.

  4. #49

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtfox View Post
    Actually, it's the ADA. For mobility devices like an ECV, 5 USC 35.137(c)(2) is the statute at issue. It allows them to seek proof, but they must accept a verbal declaration of disability as adequate proof. HIPAA regulates the dissemination of health records by regulated entities. It doesn't prohibit anyone from asking you for them. Yes, I'm a lawyer.
    Didn't realize you already addressed this, and I'm glad we agree!! I'm a pharmacist, so I'm all too familiar with HIPAA, though probably from a slightly different point of view than you! :-)

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    We've been at parties and when the subject turned to Disneyland have had adults brag to us about how they get to bypass the lines by having someone in their party get a wheelchair for the day.

    Of course there are many things I would like to say but usually just stand in stunned silence...

  6. #51

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    The ECVs were actually a greater annoyance to me during my recent trip than the strollers. Which is a definite first. While in line for The Little Mermaid, a man and woman, most likely in their late 60s/early 70s were riding two carts through the line for the ride, and then they got out of the carts and literally sprinted to get on the ride. If you can sprint, you don't need an ECV.

  7. #52

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Ok, I feel like I have to add something in now (as I tend to do with GAC posts).

    I am someone who doesn't look like I have a physical problem, but I do need a GAC. Several years ago, I had to have cartilage as well as the top of my femur removed from my right hip (birth defect). As long as I am walking, I'm not in pain. But once I stand still for a few minutes, my bones start rubbing together and I have intense pain.

    I don't get a wheelchair or ECV because I enjoy walking. But in order for me to enjoy more than an hour at the park, I need to not be standing still. I usually end up waiting off to the side of rides with my group for the amount of time that the line is, and then we are escorted to the front.

    If you saw me, laughing and joking with my friends, you might think I'm faking it to cut lines. But I would give anything back to not deal with this pain every day (the worst is at the grocery store where I end up pacing up and down the aisle until a line is short enough).

    And yes, I joke about being able to "cut" lines at Disneyland. I know I normally wait just as long or longer as the regular line, but why not joke about a really sucky situation.

  8. #53

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas998 View Post
    You cannot mandate compassion anymore than you can make racism or bigotry vanish through legislation... If Disney wants to on its one provide special lines for people in wheelchairs or people that simply have red hair, it should be their right to do so... The problem is that with the ADA and lawyer happy people, the companies have no ability to decide on their own what is reasonable and what isn't, they have to err on the side of caution to avoid being sued silly... and that opens the door for people that want to manipulate the system.

    Do you honestly think that if the ADA was abolished tomorrow that Disney would suddenly remove all the things that make the park accessible to people that really need help? I don't. But I do think that if the ADA was abolished, places like Disney could use their own judgement to insure that the systems worked as intended and wasn't abused by people just looking to get an edge. I would think someone like yourself would be bothered by people taking advantage of the system.
    I don't think anyone here approves of those who abuse ECVs or the GAC system. However, you have repeatedly stated that you object or do not like legitimate GAC use--you've referred to it as "special treatment," "free perks," etc. You've also made it clear that you think the disabled should not come to the park instead of receiving accommodation (the comment about those with sunlight allergies, etc.).

    You can't legislate compassion, but you can certainly legislate equal protections and equal representation for the disabled, which is what the ADA does. The same as the Civil Rights act assures Americans of all ethnic backgrounds equal protection. We all have the same Constitutional rights and if some companies can't get that, laws like the CRA and ADA will help them understand that.

    Does the GAC system need to be fixed? Sure, but it still needs to exist.

    ---------- Post added 10-25-2012 at 12:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KellyMcG86 View Post
    I am very, very familiar with HIPAA, and I know that generally a doctor's note is not a violation. Maybe it is, though, in the circumstance of needing one for rental equipment? However a note saying you require the use of equipment would reveal no more information about your condition than saying you need it in the first place, and obviously Disney shouldn't be making a list of renters public, so I don't see how it would violate HIPAA as long as they aren't sharing medical information beyond the minimum of what they need to confirm there is a disability requiring equipment (which is legal information to share if the patient is voluntarily renting). That being said, I am not at all familiar with ADA laws, so this is probably all moot anyway!
    That's the understanding I had too; that a vague note is sufficient.

    For instance the note could say "Ms. X has a medical issue that compromises her mobility. She requires an ECV to enjoy Disneyland," it doesn't have to say "Ms. X is a Stage III leukemia patient and is currently undergoing Chemo Protocol 198389 and needs an ECV because she's weak from her treatment."

    I sometimes need to carry a doctor's note because I carry an Epi-Pen -- a large syringe of adrenaline -- because I have serious allergies and asthma. The note basically says "(Malina) has been a patient at my office since 2002, she has asthma and allergies and must keep her medications ___ and _____ with her at all times" and has the doctor's official stamp with his license number, it's on his office letterhead, etc. It's always been accepted when I've needed to show it.
    Last edited by Malina; 10-24-2012 at 11:49 PM.

  9. #54

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    So... because they are in pain if they have to wait too long, they shouldn't be allowed to go to a theme park?
    Re-read my post and it will make sense.

  10. #55

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    My family (of 4) was just there on 10/15 & we rented the electric chair for my sister since she is recovering from a fracture in her ankle.
    She can still walk, but only for brief periods & certainly no long period standing.

    So yes, we took the "shorter" lines. Honestly, it was just as long a wait in some of those lines as if we waited in the regular lines.
    We did witness plenty of people who had the "invisible" disabilities find out how long the wait time was & would just go get a FastPass because that was faster. So it leaves me to wonder, were they abusers of the privilege?

    As for the limit of # of people. I think if it was only 2, then where is the fun for the photo op at the end of certain rides? Isn't the point of going to a park as a family for the family time? Not the do everything separately time? I do understand much larger groups- that is a tad ridiculous since they would not all be seated together anyways.

    It was nice that most all the rides at DCA, we could just get in a regular line & not have to try to figure out where do we go. Or get the evil stares from people when we were moved to the front.
    But then again, DCA was built in a different era when accommodations for such things are now an obvious necessity.

    I don't discount that there are abusers of privilege. I just hate that people who actually need it & only use as needed, get villanized in the process like being caught in the crossfire.
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  11. #56

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by JMazz View Post

    September 13, 2012

    I must say, for a guy with ZERO experience in the department of scooters you folks got me what I needed and for that I couldn't be happier. We had my mom and dad fly in with us so they could enjoy the parks with their grandkids. They know absolutely nothing about these either, but with the walking involved with the parks we just couldn't risk it. interupting 6 kids while visiting Magic Kingdom was something I wanted, AT ALL COST, to avoid.........And yes I did say SIX kids!
    You guys really did help to make the trip the absolute best it possibly could have been. The parents were only going to do Magic Kingdom with us but having the scooters made it possible to do them all. Thanks again I really appreciate how great your company was.

    Timmons Landry

    What am I missing here? There's nothing in this letter that hints at abuse.

  12. #57

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Your kid could also miss out on seeing a character just because someone happened to get to the line more quickly than you did...that's neither here nor there.

    You seem to have a lot of resentment toward the disabled. That's too bad. I could spend hours writing a post to try to explain that there are NO free perks for the disabled -- go ahead, ask any of them if getting a GAC or riding in the wheelchair boat at iasw makes up for not being able to walk, or having arthritis or cancer. It seems pointless to try to argue it out if there's so much inherent resentment, though.

    The GAC and disabled line access, when used by those who really need them, HELP the disabled "be like everyone else." Without those options they wouldn't be able to come in at all. They're not being treated better; they're receiving the help they need to get on the ride.

    Disney can't do everything. There's no way to get a wheelchair to the top of Tarzan's Treehouse, for instance. However, when there's a situation where something like an alternative entrance, a GAC or an accessible ride vehicle can help someone experience the park, there's no reason, in a compassionate and inclusive society, not to have those options.

    well said Malina.. i agree with the first part you said.. seriously!

    ---------- Post added 10-25-2012 at 11:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas998 View Post
    Actually I said it was distracting and didn't fit the scene... but that has nothing to do with people abusing the ECV system.... And why do you think it only the teenagers that are abusing the system? I've known people that were full grown adults boasting of how they could game the system at Disney to get ahead of the line... Simply because someone is an adult doesn't magically make them saints, it that were the case there would be no need for prisons.
    ..see ya i figured you said it didn't fit with the scene..and no your right it does not, but it does go with what Malina said before about having resentment against disabled..

    also, so does a person with a GAC card that can't stand in line long cause they have major stress anxeity with ADD, be considered a free perks? GAC cards are for to those that need them to help them be normal like other park guests..

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    Again, being disabled is nothing like having red hair. Your insistence for downplaying the major challenges that people face on a day to day basis is extremely ignorant.
    i agree.

    ---------- Post added 10-25-2012 at 12:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DL Lover in LA View Post
    Ok, I feel like I have to add something in now (as I tend to do with GAC posts).

    I am someone who doesn't look like I have a physical problem, but I do need a GAC. Several years ago, I had to have cartilage as well as the top of my femur removed from my right hip (birth defect). As long as I am walking, I'm not in pain. But once I stand still for a few minutes, my bones start rubbing together and I have intense pain.

    I don't get a wheelchair or ECV because I enjoy walking. But in order for me to enjoy more than an hour at the park, I need to not be standing still. I usually end up waiting off to the side of rides with my group for the amount of time that the line is, and then we are escorted to the front.

    If you saw me, laughing and joking with my friends, you might think I'm faking it to cut lines. But I would give anything back to not deal with this pain every day (the worst is at the grocery store where I end up pacing up and down the aisle until a line is short enough).

    And yes, I joke about being able to "cut" lines at Disneyland. I know I normally wait just as long or longer as the regular line, but why not joke about a really sucky situation.

    i don't have what you have.. but i use a GAC also.. I have aspergers, i got ADD and it strikes at the oddest times..I cannot, wait to long i get jittery and have major stress anxiety attacks then. I have a GAC. It cuts my wait time down by a bit, but i don't feel i get special perks from it,i still wait in a line, it's just a seperate line away from the park guests as it is more quiet enviroment so i can keep calm.

    And from looking at me, you wouldn't even know it..so even though someone on the outside looks normal, you don't know what the inside looks like. You cannot judge a book by the cover!

    ..and i know about the grocery store thing! seriously i wish i could use my GAC at the store lol, i walk up and down also waiting for a line to shorten before i step into it and if i feel i have a attack coming on i have to leave the store..

    ..and so BACK TO THREAD if a person needs a ECV and you think that they maybe abusing the system .. well you can think that, i don't because like i said you don't know what the inside looks like even if the outside looks fine.
    Last edited by Poisonedapples; 10-25-2012 at 11:22 AM.

  13. #58

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by ttintagel View Post
    What am I missing here? There's nothing in this letter that hints at abuse.
    Long Answer:
    I saw it as laziness on his part b/c he is the renter and encouraging the grandparents to use them. What was his main benefit? The kids get to stay longer b/c the grandparents wont be as tired. But I asked my SO for a diff POV. He says that it is the grandparents that are using the scooters that were rented by the dad so they are the abusers; my SO sees it as the grandparents as being very lazy. I say it is the enabling father. Yes, we actually debated this while having dinner after he got home.

    In the end, after having that family debate for a few min last night, we both thought it seemed like laziness on the part of the family as a whole. After all, we can climb Mt. Everest if someone makes a device that cuts out all the work. There was a time when ppl put an effort into the parks. The parks aren't designed to have 10k scooters in them and when it does have that many, the effect isn't a "happy" one. The last place you need to try out a new vehicle (and remember it is a vehicle), is at a crowded themepark. This testimonial (above) is a perfect example of abuse. I am 100% sure that no one in that family intended to cause anything negitive to happen. Their intent wasn't to displace truely disabled ppl who have a genuine ECV need; I am sure there was no harm meant. But good intentions do not make them any less of an abuser.

    Why do I even care? When it comes to GAC lines, I pretty much don't care anymore as the years wear on b/c I am caving in. It is the ECV problem of taking up space that affects me, my family and the legit ppl w/ disabilities who are displaced. An ECV abuser has a foot print up to 4x their standing footprint. And don't get me started on the ppl who use it as a battering ram. If you don't need one except when you go to a themepark or if a themepark is your inspiration to use it for the very first time, then IMO you are abusing. That is what it says in the testimonial. How do you see the testimonial paragraph???

    Short Answer:
    Scooter for an ailment?
    Of course because this is what they are designed for.

    Scooter-rental-for-the-first-time-because-walking-at-a-theme-park-might-make-you-go-home-earlier-because-there's-effort-involved-and-you-don't-want-to-upset-the-kids-who-will-have-to-cut-their-trip-short-by-a-couple-hrs?
    No way. This is abuse.

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    My main issue with EVC abuse is that is hurts those who sometimes really need it. There are many people out there who don't need wheelchairs or rascals in their everyday life, but for various reasons are not able to traverse the many miles that a typical day at the parks results in.

    On any relatively busy day Disneyland Resort runs out of ECVs, they are all rented out for the day until someone turns them back in and then they have to recharged anyways. That means someone who could be in need of one, if they don't show up early enough, are not able to get one because someone else who is abusing the system rented it before them.
    "If we cut the budget are you going to be the one standing at the exit explaining to guests why the ride they just rode is a piece of crap?" - - John Lasseter

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Poisonedapples View Post
    well said Malina.. i agree with the first part you said.. seriously!

    ---------- Post added 10-25-2012 at 11:36 AM ----------



    ..see ya i figured you said it didn't fit with the scene..and no your right it does not, but it does go with what Malina said before about having resentment against disabled..

    also, so does a person with a GAC card that can't stand in line long cause they have major stress anxeity with ADD, be considered a free perks? GAC cards are for to those that need them to help them be normal like other park guests..



    i agree.

    ---------- Post added 10-25-2012 at 12:16 PM ----------




    i don't have what you have.. but i use a GAC also.. I have aspergers, i got ADD and it strikes at the oddest times..I cannot, wait to long i get jittery and have major stress anxiety attacks then. I have a GAC. It cuts my wait time down by a bit, but i don't feel i get special perks from it,i still wait in a line, it's just a seperate line away from the park guests as it is more quiet enviroment so i can keep calm.

    And from looking at me, you wouldn't even know it..so even though someone on the outside looks normal, you don't know what the inside looks like. You cannot judge a book by the cover!

    ..and i know about the grocery store thing! seriously i wish i could use my GAC at the store lol, i walk up and down also waiting for a line to shorten before i step into it and if i feel i have a attack coming on i have to leave the store..

    ..and so BACK TO THREAD if a person needs a ECV and you think that they maybe abusing the system .. well you can think that, i don't because like i said you don't know what the inside looks like even if the outside looks fine.
    wow, when I think of it almost everyone I know has some kind of disability or condition at least equal to what you describe in their group (and no I am not kidding); they have managed without it, but perhaps they shouldn't...

    I guess the one fair solution is, give everyone a GAC when they come in the gate and they can use it or not as they need to!
    Last edited by skoolpsyk; 10-26-2012 at 05:43 AM.

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