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  1. #76

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by marqueemark View Post
    I'm sorry if this is a sensitive question but I was curious why ECVs are so popular and have replaced so many electric wheelchairs. Are electric wheelchairs much more expensive or hard to maintain? Electric wheelchairs take up so much less space in queues, stores, etc. Can anyone fill me in on this?
    Here is some more information. Wheelchairs steer through the use of 2 motors and require electronics with a joystick to do this. You do the steering on a scooter and they have a single motor. This increases the price of a wheelchair as compared to a scooter upwards of 2x and can be much much more.

    The other reason is the portability factor. Very few wheelchairs disassemble for transport where as all scooters come apart for easier transport and can fit in a trunk.

  2. #77

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by DL Lover in LA View Post
    Ok, I feel like I have to add something in now (as I tend to do with GAC posts).

    I am someone who doesn't look like I have a physical problem, but I do need a GAC. Several years ago, I had to have cartilage as well as the top of my femur removed from my right hip (birth defect). As long as I am walking, I'm not in pain. But once I stand still for a few minutes, my bones start rubbing together and I have intense pain.

    I don't get a wheelchair or ECV because I enjoy walking. But in order for me to enjoy more than an hour at the park, I need to not be standing still. I usually end up waiting off to the side of rides with my group for the amount of time that the line is, and then we are escorted to the front.

    If you saw me, laughing and joking with my friends, you might think I'm faking it to cut lines. But I would give anything back to not deal with this pain every day (the worst is at the grocery store where I end up pacing up and down the aisle until a line is short enough).

    And yes, I joke about being able to "cut" lines at Disneyland. I know I normally wait just as long or longer as the regular line, but why not joke about a really sucky situation.
    Thanks for your post. I feel like you were speaking for me too a little. I'm 61 now and after multiple hip surgeries, I can walk without a cane, but standing makes me break into a sweat. We lived in SoCal when I was young, and I was one of those who would enter the park when it opened at 0800 and stay until the park closed at midnight or later.

    I obviously can't do that any more but still want to enjoy the park as long as possible, and a scooter would greatly extend my capacity. I just hate the way that the fakers have fostered the perception that the GAC is some kind of affirmative action program for lazy folks or cheaters. I would welcome a documentation requirement so that everyone would know that people using assistive devices had demonstrated a legitimate need for them.
    Disney Fan in the Great White North

  3. #78

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by ttintagel View Post
    Exactly - the letter appears to be from someone who needs assistance. Therefore, since it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, I assume it is what it appears to be rather than some kind of fake.

    How did we get to fake? What makes you think I was calling this letter out as a fake testimonial? I think it is real... and that is the problem.
    ~Jay

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  4. #79

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas998 View Post
    I think there is too much of the entitlement mentality that is becoming acceptable when you say someone with autism that doesn't like crowds or someone that is allergic to sunlight... I'm sorry but if you can't take the sunlight or you can't be around noisy crowded places then you really shouldn't be going to Disneyland or any other amusement park. Should we next set up special places on the beach where no one is allowed to play and have fun because it might upset someone that doesn't like noise? Should we set up large canopies that cover the entire beach so people that can't take sunlight can still go there?


    I'm sorry, but life isn't fair... we aren't all able to deal with the world as it is, but it doesn't mean that everyone has to change the world to suit a few that can't deal with it... at some point parents need to simply accept that their kid isn't like other kids and change what they do as a family to have fun instead of trying to force the world to change to them... I have a daughter that as very poor coordination should I sue the local school and force them to allow her to play basketball when she can't dribble a ball?

    I can't believe in 2012 there are still people like you who think it's ok for people with disabilities to just miss out because they're disabled. That's just so bigoted, horrible, and ignorant. I do hope you never find out the hard way what it's like to have a disability or a kid with a disability, but I do hope you learn some compassion and humanity. Oh, and making allowances for people with disabilities is a completely different thing to trying to pretend everyone has the same skills.

    ---------- Post added 11-06-2012 at 11:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas998 View Post
    Actually having someone cut the line can adversely affect you. There is only so much time in a day and 5 minutes here and 5 minutes there add up over time... Would 1 person abusing the system make a dent in anyones day? Just ask the kid that missed out on getting to see their favorite character by 1 person. No one deserves to be treated special simply because they were dealt a bad hand by nature. A few decades ago the big push by the disabled was that they just wanted to be treated like everyone else... suddenly it seems to have shifted to better than everybody else.

    Millions of people have problems of all sorts, there shouldn't be any system where we provide free perks simply because you were unlucky in life.
    Perks? Are you actually serious? It's not a freaking perk getting to use a disabled line. It's a perk being able to walk and not needing it.

  5. #80

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebekkap View Post
    I can't believe in 2012 there are still people like you who think it's ok for people with disabilities to just miss out because they're disabled. That's just so bigoted, horrible, and ignorant.
    I don't think that was what was being said at all. The pendulum can swing too far each way. Making allowances can swing too far to become "entitlements". It was a good swing of the pendulum when public sidewalks were lowered to include a handicap ramp but even a co-worker of mine who is in a wheelchair thought they went too far by putting those little concrete sections with bumps all over them. This helps no one, wheelchair, crutches, Nova walker, etc.

    In the case of what Thomas998 is saying, the entitlements go too far when you make the community bend to fit around you. Life is hard, adapt. My friend who got back from Iraq with a leg missing has adapted and is pretty upset at all the people who insist society be built around them. It's up to the individual to make their own choices about what attraction to go on, if they're fit for it, etc. He adapts, knows his limitations and does as much as he can, but he doesn't sue a private pilot training school because they require he have two legs to work the pedals.


    There's a medium that needs to be reached. As far out as you think Thomas998 is, I see you swinging so far the other way that everyone who doesn't see it your way is now an uncompassionate zealot. Please.

  6. #81

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebekkap View Post
    I can't believe in 2012 there are still people like you who think it's ok for people with disabilities to just miss out because they're disabled.
    If people with disabilities should not miss out on some things due to their disability, does that mean we should make all things equally accessible for all disabilities?

    Where do you want to split the hair?

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Thanks for answering my question. I wondered about that.
    Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be? - hang gliding, come on!

  8. #83

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Garthilk View Post
    If people with disabilities should not miss out on some things due to their disability, does that mean we should make all things equally accessible for all disabilities?

    Where do you want to split the hair?
    You can't. A blind person is never going to be able to see a movie, for example. But to suggest, as the person I was responding to, that people with autism or an allergy to sunlit should not be able to go to Disneyland because no allowances should be made for them is ridiculous, discriminatory and wrong.

    ---------- Post added 11-06-2012 at 02:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by fifthrider View Post
    I don't think that was what was being said at all. The pendulum can swing too far each way. Making allowances can swing too far to become "entitlements". It was a good swing of the pendulum when public sidewalks were lowered to include a handicap ramp but even a co-worker of mine who is in a wheelchair thought they went too far by putting those little concrete sections with bumps all over them. This helps no one, wheelchair, crutches, Nova walker, etc.

    In the case of what Thomas998 is saying, the entitlements go too far when you make the community bend to fit around you. Life is hard, adapt. My friend who got back from Iraq with a leg missing has adapted and is pretty upset at all the people who insist society be built around them. It's up to the individual to make their own choices about what attraction to go on, if they're fit for it, etc. He adapts, knows his limitations and does as much as he can, but he doesn't sue a private pilot training school because they require he have two legs to work the pedals.


    There's a medium that needs to be reached. As far out as you think Thomas998 is, I see you swinging so far the other way that everyone who doesn't see it your way is now an uncompassionate zealot. Please.
    That's not at all what he said. He said people with autism and people with allergies to sunlight, who literally can't wait outdoors in a queue should not be ale to do to Disneyland.

  9. #84

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by fifthrider View Post
    In the case of what Thomas998 is saying, the entitlements go too far when you make the community bend to fit around you. Life is hard, adapt. My friend who got back from Iraq with a leg missing has adapted and is pretty upset at all the people who insist society be built around them. It's up to the individual to make their own choices about what attraction to go on, if they're fit for it, etc. He adapts, knows his limitations and does as much as he can, but he doesn't sue a private pilot training school because they require he have two legs to work the pedals.
    Yes, but the thing is, the GAC program and Disneyland's other accessibility features don't "build society around the disabled." It simply includes them. Having a queue that is large enough to accommodate a wheelchair, or a Braille menu at the Blue Bayou, or a menu that lists allergens, isn't taking away from your experience. You can still walk the queue, read the regular menu and have all the peanuts and shellfish you want. Those accommodations simply widen access to include to those who might not be able-bodied. Would we really prefer to be back 100 years where we thought that everyone who was not young and healthy was invisible?

  10. #85

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Yes, but the thing is, the GAC program and Disneyland's other accessibility features don't "build society around the disabled." It simply includes them. Having a queue that is large enough to accommodate a wheelchair, or a Braille menu at the Blue Bayou, or a menu that lists allergens, isn't taking away from your experience. You can still walk the queue, read the regular menu and have all the peanuts and shellfish you want. Those accommodations simply widen access to include to those who might not be able-bodied. Would we really prefer to be back 100 years where we thought that everyone who was not young and healthy was invisible?
    Yes exactly, thank you.

  11. #86

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Nah, I got that point Malina but I do appreciate you putting a better point on it. Still, the pendulum can swing too far based on how loud some complain. In the case of wider aisles? Yeah, sure. In the ( obviously extreme ) case of people with sun allergies and going to the beach? It really can go too far sometimes, and every time I cross the street and see those damned dots in the sidewalk ( the ones that even the few disabled people I know don't even like ) I have to wonder how far things have already gone. I'm certainly not in any position to rip into a guy and tell him he's being narrowminded while also demonstrating narrowmindedness because he doesn't see it my way.

  12. #87

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by fifthrider View Post
    Nah, I got that point Malina but I do appreciate you putting a better point on it. Still, the pendulum can swing too far based on how loud some complain. In the case of wider aisles? Yeah, sure. In the ( obviously extreme ) case of people with sun allergies and going to the beach? It really can go too far sometimes, and every time I cross the street and see those damned dots in the sidewalk ( the ones that even the few disabled people I know don't even like ) I have to wonder how far things have already gone. I'm certainly not in any position to rip into a guy and tell him he's being narrowminded while also demonstrating narrowmindedness because he doesn't see it my way.
    Thank you.

    As I understand it, the bumps are for blind people, so there's a change in the feel of the sidewalk/what their canes hit and they have some warning before there's a curb. As far as I know, anyway. The slope in the sidewalk when you get to a crosswalk might help people who are blind or perfectly able-bodied people who have strollers, carts, etc. I know there have been plenty of times I've carried groceries home in my little granny cart and I've been grateful for those slopes, and I know that moms with strollers find them a lot easier. So sometimes accessible measures do help us all.

    The ADA is pretty clear about reasonable accommodation. Reasonable is open to interpretation, but there are a lot of concessions.

    Let's talk about that sun allergy thing. Would it be reasonable to, say, insist that the beach is only open at night, or is covered with canopies? No. Would it be reasonable to put one or two canopies or offer umbrellas for rentals? Sure, and most beaches do this already, because even if you're not allergic you might not want to sit out in the sun all day. You use the services if you need them; if not, no harm, no foul, and you won't even notice the person on the other end of the sand who has an umbrella. At Disneyland? If that person has a GAC that allows them to either wait in the shade or use a covered entrance that already exists, is it really such a bother? You might not even see it.

    Frankly, my time at Disney is a lot more negatively affected by people who are rude, people who don't control their children, et al than it is someone in a wheelchair who needs a GAC or goes in through another entrance.

  13. #88

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by JMazz View Post
    How did we get to fake? What makes you think I was calling this letter out as a fake testimonial? I think it is real... and that is the problem.
    We got to fake by your saying that their need for assistance need wasn't genuine. Something that isn't genuine is fake.

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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    Quote Originally Posted by ttintagel View Post
    We got to fake by your saying that their need for assistance need wasn't genuine. Something that isn't genuine is fake.
    Wow. Ok. Did you really think I didn't know what the definition was?

    I think it is a real testimonial, with a fake need. But then, you knew what I was saying, didn't you? Just b/c you disagree on it being a good example of the scooter/ECV issues at the parks is niether here nor there. You don't like the example, fine. I will not be taking the time to find another since my point was made days ago and others understood.

    Look, there's a problem w/ ECV and I am sure you'd agree.
    And we will have to disagree on what constitutes as abuse.
    ~Jay

    "Ahh-chooo!" ~ Walt Disney
    "Bless you." ~ My Grandfather
    (Disneyland, circa 1957)


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    Re: Follow Up On The Issue Of ECV Abuse At Disneyland Park

    I agree that there are people who abuse this just so that they can avoid lines...do they require any kind of a doctors pass for wheelchair or ECV rentals?

    However - I think the passes should be distributed on a needs basis too. If you're down there with your whole family, why should they be broken up and not allowed to ride together?

    When my mom was battling cancer we contemplated a trip to Disneyland, would have gone this route. Sadly, she was too weak to make the trip, but if she'd been able to go there would have been a total of 9 of us in the group, grandchildren included. In her state she would have been too fragile for Indiana Jones, etc so we would have waited in the regular lines, but I don't see why we couldn't or shouldn't have waited and ridden together for the other ones. Believe me, I would have given almost anything to have her healthy and had one more trip to DL with her before she passed in 2004.

    But yes, I'm all for a crackdown on those who are truly abusing the system!
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