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  1. #256

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt Fan View Post
    If there is one thing I hate about internet forums, its the word "source." There are a few of us out there who have terrific memories for information we've read as well as certain stats.
    With a few exceptions, like experts on Disneyland trains, I would prefer a source that could be verified rather than what someone claims to remember hearing or reading somewhere. Like our great 40th president was fond of saying, "trust, but verify".

    However, when the information comes from a known expert on the subject that they know best, I tend to take their word for it.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  2. #257

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    In order to know for sure, there can be 4 people standing at each station all day counting every person who gets in line for the train, then dividing the total number of people who rode the train by the total number of people in the park that day. That would make my brain explode.

  3. #258

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    Quote Originally Posted by clippers6 View Post
    I didn't ask him to provide a source
    That's what I said! We seem to be in agreement here.

    And with genuine respect, I hope we can note the difference between "an opinion" (as drjeep alluded to) and "made up statistic". With that--since my goal is civility, the most civil thing I can do now is shut up and let the matter rest. We're here to be friends. Back to Disney dreaming!

  4. #259

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    Quote Originally Posted by von Drake View Post
    That's what I said! We seem to be in agreement here.

    And with genuine respect, I hope we can note the difference between "an opinion" (as drjeep alluded to) and "made up statistic". With that--since my goal is civility, the most civil thing I can do now is shut up and let the matter rest. We're here to be friends. Back to Disney dreaming!
    Agreed! Back to discussing trains and dinosaurs

  5. #260

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    Quote Originally Posted by clippers6 View Post
    As others were quick to point out, the guy's an author. He literally has it written down somewhere.
    Yes, it is. Somewhere.

    My library consists of literally thousands of pages of documentation about the Disneyland Railroad--from SOPs to "Line" articles to press releases to equipment blueprints to internal personnel documents to personal recollections of cast members to dozens of books and magazine articles on the subject spanning nearly six decades. I apologize for not wishing to take several days to review all this literature to satisfy the seemingly-insincere request that I back up my number.

    That said, the two sources I did consult--Volume 19 of The E Tcket and the August 2008 issue of Railfan & Railroad offer this:

    "[T]he trains of the Disneyland Railroad continue to attract an incredible 68% of all who visit the Park."--The E Ticket

    "[M]ore guests ride the trains than any other Disneyland attraction."--Railfan & Railroad

    If, in my travels I again stumble upon the "3 out of 4" number (which is how I remember the statistic being written), I'll be sure to post it here. But it may be a while.
    Last edited by Steve DeGaetano; 12-02-2012 at 10:26 AM.

  6. #261

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    I love this portion of the train ride. I look forward to it every time. I just wish people did not take photographs with a flash reflecting off of glass. Duh! :-)

  7. #262

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    Our family trips to Disneyland are never complete until we ride the Train, when my children were younger they would go crazy every time we would pass the dinosaurs. I hope that one day I can take my Grandchildren and let them enjoy this Timeless Disney Classic. Keep it just the way it is, that's my vote.

  8. #263

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    Let's be clear on one thing: what we see in the tunnel are actually two different attractions. The Grand Canyon dates from 1958. The Primeval World, originally an attraction at the 1964 World's Fair, wasn't installed in DL until 1966.

    The Grand Canyon is a diorama. The figures are real taxidermied animals, and were never intended to move.

    The Primeval World is an audio-animitronic display. The figures are artificial constructs, designed to move.

    I personally believe that changing the diorama (with AA figures, etc) would make it something other than what it was intended to be: a diorama. Like if we added a loop to the Disneyland Railroad--we'd be making it something other than a railroad.

    The Primeval World, however, can be freely updated, as far as I'm concerned, just like they've updated AA Lincoln. In fact there are many inaccuracies that could be corrected. Making the motion more realistic, making the dinosaurs reflect current paleontological knowledge? Sure. Doesn't change the nature of the exhibit itself.

  9. #264

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    Quote Originally Posted by von Drake View Post
    Let's be clear on one thing: what we see in the tunnel are actually two different attractions. The Grand Canyon dates from 1958. The Primeval World, originally an attraction at the 1964 World's Fair, wasn't installed in DL until 1966.

    The Grand Canyon is a diorama. The figures are real taxidermied animals, and were never intended to move.

    The Primeval World is an audio-animitronic display. The figures are artificial constructs, designed to move.

    I personally believe that changing the diorama (with AA figures, etc) would make it something other than what it was intended to be: a diorama. Like if we added a loop to the Disneyland Railroad--we'd be making it something other than a railroad.

    The Primeval World, however, can be freely updated, as far as I'm concerned, just like they've updated AA Lincoln. In fact there are many inaccuracies that could be corrected. Making the motion more realistic, making the dinosaurs reflect current paleontological knowledge? Sure. Doesn't change the nature of the exhibit itself.
    You have a good point and I do have a fondness for the diorama for its nostalgic and historical nature. It is the only non-moving diorama at a Disney park that isn't a miniature or window display if I am not mistaken. I think that may be why so many have suggested adding audio animatronic animals. While dioramas are an art form of their own, they are normally associated with museums while audio animatronic displays are what one expects from Disney. This is why to a member of the general public (not us that post on Disney forums) it comes across as out of date, especially when presented side by side with the Primeval World.

    So I guess the argument, as far as AAs vs a traditional diorama, comes down to "preserve Disney history" vs "Disneyland is not a museum" debate that many topics on this forum turn into. Jungle Cruise was another attraction with animals that opened before the use of AAs and I think most would agree the addition of AAs improved the attraction, but one could also argue that, unlike the Grand Canyon Diorama, Jungle Cruise was originally envisioned to have moving animals (at one point it was supposed to use real animals) so AAs didn't change the nature of that attraction the way it would the diorama. So really I can see both sides here and in many ways it comes down to personal opinion.

  10. #265

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    Here's a great thread about the Grand Canyon Diorama in case anyone missed it....

    Grand Canyon Diorama and Primeval World Attraction (The Best!)

  11. #266

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Yes, it is. Somewhere.

    My library consists of literally thousands of pages of documentation about the Disneyland Railroad--from SOPs to "Line" articles to press releases to equipment blueprints to internal personnel documents to personal recollections of cast members to dozens of books and magazine articles on the subject spanning nearly six decades. I apologize for not wishing to take several days to review all this literature to satisfy the seemingly-insincere request that I back up my number.

    That said, the two sources I did consult--Volume 19 of The E Tcket and the August 2008 issue of Railfan & Railroad offer this:

    "[T]he trains of the Disneyland Railroad continue to attract an incredible 68% of all who visit the Park."--The E Ticket

    "[M]ore guests ride the trains than any other Disneyland attraction."--Railfan & Railroad

    If, in my travels I again stumble upon the "3 out of 4" number (which is how I remember the statistic being written), I'll be sure to post it here. But it may be a while.
    I think everyone here believes you, the problem is your condescending tone.

  12. #267

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    Quote Originally Posted by PiecesOfEight View Post
    Also, I don't buy the "critters as targets"...the animatronics on POTC aren't behind glass...wouldn't they also be targets?
    Ever heard the story about ATIS? Since it was the first Omnimover dark ride the sets were within arms reach of the passenger after only a few years they had to install CCTVs and create the "Envelope of Protection"
    to cut down on people touching the set, spitting on the eyes, throwing food into the eye, creating rips in the projection screens etc.

  13. #268

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    At the time of its opening in 1958, the diorama was the longest in the world at 306 ft., costing $367,000 to create as well as using 300 gallons of paint


    One problem that I have is with the current narration (or lack of one) is when you approach the diorama. The narrator simply says "And now the Grand Canyon!" and then music plays until Primeval World appears. Back in 1958 the diorama might have been exciting all by itself, but times change. How about a new narration that goes into the making of the diorama, its place in the history books, and how Walt came to acquire it?

  14. #269

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorQ9 View Post
    At the time of its opening in 1958, the diorama was the longest in the world at 306 ft., costing $367,000 to create as well as using 300 gallons of paint


    One problem that I have is with the current narration (or lack of one) is when you approach the diorama. The narrator simply says "And now the Grand Canyon!" and then music plays until Primeval World appears. Back in 1958 the diorama might have been exciting all by itself, but times change. How about a new narration that goes into the making of the diorama, its place in the history books, and how Walt came to acquire it?
    That would spoil the magic in my opinion, and plus Disneyland isn't a museum.

  15. #270

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    Re: Time to Send the Grand Canyon Diorama to Yesterland

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorQ9 View Post
    One problem that I have is with the current narration (or lack of one) is when you approach the diorama. The narrator simply says "And now the Grand Canyon!" and then music plays until Primeval World appears. Back in 1958 the diorama might have been exciting all by itself, but times change. How about a new narration that goes into the making of the diorama, its place in the history books, and how Walt came to acquire it?
    That's a great point and your suggestion would actually be a great compromise between preserving a piece of Disney history and meeting the expectations of the modern guest. They could even put some photos like the one you found of the creation of the diorama since the section leading up to the diorama does break the magic a little (the unthemed back of the Innoventions building).

    Part of me is hoping that once they turn Innoventions into Iron Man or whatever they decide to do with it, they'll add a little peak into the attraction similar to the peak into Splash Mountain.

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