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  1. #106

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    Quote Originally Posted by micromind View Post
    For what it's worth, here's a real-life example.

    About 7 years ago, my wife of 25 years passed away. My daughter was 11 at the time.

    A few months after she was gone, we decided to do something special, just father and daughter. We went to DL for 3 days. The park wasn't crowded at all. Most lines were about 5 - 10 minutes, a lot of rides were walk ons.

    We had the time of our lives!!

    A couple of months later, we went again, but this time we took 3 of her friends. 5 persons total. The park was a little more crowded, but still easily bearable.

    After summer (peak season back then), we went again, and took 5 of her friends. (Trying to keep 5 - 12 year old girls together was a lot like herding cats......lol). Again, not very crowded at all.

    As the years went by, the parks became far more crowded. Way more. To the point that we went only once a year. Once a year, solely because of huge crowds. No other reason.

    If I knew that DL were less crowded, you can bet I'd be back at least two or 3 times a year.

    We always get a bunch of merchandise while we're there; it's a vacation after all! We also eat meals and snacks in the parks too.

    Do the math; did DL make or lose money by replacing me and my 'entourage' with APers? Or even worse, monthly payment APers?

    It's entirely possible that the upper brass at TDC is beginning to realize that flooding the parks with an insane amount of people (a lot of whom pay WAY less that I do) may very well not be as profitable as they once thought.

    Rob
    Nail on the head.

    If Disney can decrease crowds and increase revenue? It's a win for Disney and a win for the vacationing guest.

    ---------- Post added 11-25-2012 at 03:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post

    4. Creating tourists out of locals again. If you were a long time AP chances are you went to the park a few times a month, maybe bought some food and a played around for a few hours...but if these same people only go once or twice a year (because the are Disney fans after all) , then will treat themselves to more food, more trinkets and generally spend more during those few visits that it more then makes up for the Original money. In addition to that I'm willing to bet that the local will better enjoy Disneyland again because they will appreciate the things that they liked about it before they were going every month.
    Exactly.


  2. #107

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    The issue there is that it would create a PR nightmare. Can you imagine a family of 6 from Washington who shows up to the park with 5 day park-hoppers and 5 days between flights at LAX but can't get in because Disney is capping attendance for those already inside? It would be a catastrophe. It already is when they have to do it the handful of time a year and lowering that limit would only make it happen earlier in the morning.
    Dynamic & Reserved Pricing on the busy days would help with this. It would not surprize me in the least if DLR became the first themepark to use D&RP 365 days per year. With the numbers and popularity I could see it happen in the next 5 yrs or less as others have said in a round-a-bout way. The AP program would have to change dramtically.










    Quote Originally Posted by JDN View Post
    Oh, and I love the upscale dining at Carthay and the ability to enjoy it in my shorts.
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  3. #108

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    Well, simply put, they are still increasing the prices of the AP's by a large margin, larger than a cost of goods or inflation type of increase. My bet is that the AP program was too successful and Disney feels that there are too many "drop in" guests. As stated before many times, the park operates differently with these AP's who are able to come after work or on Friday night for a few hours. And while these drop ins still bring in revenue for the park, they probably do not spend as much as the vacationers, who are buying their souvenirs and meals on property. So the simple solution is to raise the price of the AP's. There will be a few benefits:
    1. While the quantity of AP's will go down, the price hike will offset the dropping numbers.
    2. More room in the park for overall guest enjoyment (better chance of returning)
    3. Less money spent on maintenance and CM's
    and most interesting:
    4. Creating tourists out of locals again. If you were a long time AP chances are you went to the park a few times a month, maybe bought some food and a played around for a few hours...but if these same people only go once or twice a year (because the are Disney fans after all) , then will treat themselves to more food, more trinkets and generally spend more during those few visits that it more then makes up for the Original money. In addition to that I'm willing to bet that the local will better enjoy Disneyland again because they will appreciate the things that they liked about it before they were going every month.
    Ok. I agree completely. I thought what you had meant was that the crowding we are seeing now is due to AP's still paying to come at the higher rate when it is likely just because those AP's still have not expired at the lower rate.

    ---------- Post added 11-25-2012 at 11:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Because we have proof of that. Again, in the peak season, most APs are blocked out - all but the top tier. The parks are frequently operating on a 10 level of capacity then, with unbearable crowds and long waits.


    If the APs are blocked out, the traffic is obviously coming from those who buy hoppers/day tickets. Again, it doesn't solve the issue of the park teeming to capacity if those day ticket numbers aren't capped at a lower number.

    The point being that obviously enough Park Hoppers are sold to keep the park afloat, especially offset by the raised prices of AP's and Hopper tickets. Furthermore, any decrease in AP's will still help the crowding in the parks.
    The issue is that the day tickets don't show up all year round - if you want your family to have a Disney Christmas, you will be there in December regardless; if your kids are off from school in July, that is when you'll be there.

    In the off season there ARE days when the park is a ghost town, and that is WITH APs. Last week, Space was at a 30 minute wait, and even Luigi's over at DCA was only a 15 minute wait. The APs are the ones providing the bulk of the traffic on days like that - those locals who stop by for dinner and a show are the ones who give the park their income on those days. Without that revenue they probably couldn't even afford to keep the parks open.
    Not only do I think this will change, but I also think both AP holders and Day guests alike will alter their trips (just as my family did to come in the slower off season to avoid crowds while still giving Disney the opportunity to do routine maintenance just as it did for so may years very successfully.

    And again, the "raise prices" argument relies on the idea that people outside the peak season, namely locals, will go for the higher day ticket prices. I'm of the opinion that when they're priced out or the APs go away, the locals will, by and large, decide it's not worth investing in Disney and go to another local theme park or attraction instead. Even now, when I ask non-AP friends to come to the park with me, the answer I hear a lot is "it's just too expensive for the day." And again, since Disneyland is not like WDW as a "destination vacation," once those locals go away for good, the park is in trouble.
    I can see many not coming back, but some will and they will do so at the higher prices. Just two or three visits a year almost recovers the whole cost of the AP.

    We're just going to have to disagree on this one. I will never believe that pricing people out, ending or pricing out APs or making the park inaccessible to the middle or lower socioeconomic class will do anything but harm. The easiest way to solve things, again, would be to cap capacity.
    Agreed we will, but to be fair they are capping capacity, just through price instead of by slamming the gates. And, seemingly not in the way you would like them to. Would you not be the least bit upset if you got to the park at 10:00AM on an hour drive and got turned away? It isn't inaccessible, but rather it is just harder to visit with almost unlimited frequency.



    All I know is that years from now, Disneyland will still be successful. I think the whole point of this is that they do indeed know they can start making Disneyland a destination resort as has been the plan from the conception of DCA. I can only assume that is what the army of Survey Takers was tasked to find out.

  4. #109

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    It's like dusty said at the gumball rally " who thinks the ap will be $1000 by the end of 2014" I was one of those people with my hand up.... They can price it how they like people will still be there.
    Im here for fun and info not be a bully! Carsland here I come

  5. #110

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trav1Disney View Post
    They can price it how they like people will still be there.
    Really?

    It has been argued that current management knows little nothing of Disneyland or it's history. This will be their downfall. Disneyland may have been number 1 in local popularity throughout its history but there have been close seconds. Keep on doing this Disney and you might find yourself possibly even taking the back seat to USH or even Knotts someday...

  6. #111

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    Really?

    It has been argued that current management knows little nothing of Disneyland or it's history. This will be their downfall. Disneyland may have been number 1 in local popularity throughout its history but there have been close seconds. Keep on doing this Disney and you might find yourself possibly even taking the back seat to USH or even Knotts someday...
    no doubt about that.

  7. #112

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    Really?

    It has been argued that current management knows little nothing of Disneyland or it's history. This will be their downfall. Disneyland may have been number 1 in local popularity throughout its history but there have been close seconds. Keep on doing this Disney and you might find yourself possibly even taking the back seat to USH or even Knotts someday...

    The current management knows enough, heck the head guy has been working for Disney longer than many of us have been alive. And if you are going to question his knowledge and dedication I'd love to know how many years you have worked for the company?


    About George Kalogridis:

    Kalogridis has a long history with The Walt Disney Company. He has worked with the company almost exclusively for 40 years. Kalogridis first started working for Disney while he was in college. He bused tables at Disney's Contemporary Resort when the Walt Disney World Resort first opened in 1971. He would then quickly move up the ladder in The Walt Disney Company, becoming the vice president at Epcot, senior vice president at the Disneyland Resort from 2000 to 2002, chief operating officer at Disneyland Paris from 2006 to 2009, and finally president of the Disneyland Resort from 2009 to present.



    And do you really think that Knotts will ever take over Disneyland in terms of popularity? Really? Perhaps with locals who are looking to hang out for a few hours on an annual pass, but not for the vacationing public, not ever, by a long shot regardless of what ever the ticket price is going to be.

  8. #113

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    Agreed we will, but to be fair they are capping capacity, just through price instead of by slamming the gates. And, seemingly not in the way you would like them to. Would you not be the least bit upset if you got to the park at 10:00AM on an hour drive and got turned away? It isn't inaccessible, but rather it is just harder to visit with almost unlimited frequency.
    Since I take the bus, Disneyland is a 6 hour round trip for me - three hours each way. I check the wait times/etc. before I leave so I can gauge how the park is looking in terms of crowds.

    To answer your question, though: I'd rather get turned away than to experience an unbearably crowded park. If I'd paid $200 for a hopper ticket and I wasted one of those days on a day when the park was packed to bursting, I'd feel I'd totally wasted my money. If I showed up at the gates and was turned away, or had my money refunded, I'd at least have a chance to try another day.

    As I said at the beginning, a park stuffed with 80,000 is unpleasant regardless of the ticket category they are in. Expecting the situation to regulate itself by pricing people out really won't work. The only thing that will work is actually stopping people from coming in with lower caps.

  9. #114

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trav1Disney View Post
    It's like dusty said at the gumball rally " who thinks the ap will be $1000 by the end of 2014" I was one of those people with my hand up.... They can price it how they like people will still be there.
    Umm not really. They will just keep turning people off to their product and they will go elsewhere, like I am. I have a Knott's annual pass as well, which was a BARGAIN compared to this ridiculous $650 (or whatever it is) PAP now.

    Like someone said earlier, Disneyland is becoming more and more like a country club where they are pricing out a lot of the people who would love to go there... that's the complete OPPOSITE of Walt's vision.

    I guess you can't win either way... if it's affordable, then everyone would go more often and the park would be crowded as hell. If they keep raising the prices through the roof (in a recession) then people can't afford to go and soon you'll have only the upper-middle and upper class locals buying AP's, and the tourists will have to be filthy rich to afford a whole family worth of $200+ day passes (or however much they'll be in a few years at this rate). Sure the park won't be as crowded, because it will basically be a playground for spoiled, rich children with everyone else on the outside looking in. That's the saddest outcome of all, but the writing is on the wall with these ridiculous price hikes.

  10. #115

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyBono24 View Post
    Umm not really. They will just keep turning people off to their product and they will go elsewhere, like I am. I have a Knott's annual pass as well, which was a BARGAIN compared to this ridiculous $650 (or whatever it is) PAP now.

    Like someone said earlier, Disneyland is becoming more and more like a country club where they are pricing out a lot of the people who would love to go there... that's the complete OPPOSITE of Walt's vision.

    I guess you can't win either way... if it's affordable, then everyone would go more often and the park would be crowded as hell. If they keep raising the prices through the roof (in a recession) then people can't afford to go and soon you'll have only the upper-middle and upper class locals buying AP's, and the tourists will have to be filthy rich to afford a whole family worth of $200+ day passes (or however much they'll be in a few years at this rate). Sure the park won't be as crowded, because it will basically be a playground for spoiled, rich children with everyone else on the outside looking in. That's the saddest outcome of all, but the writing is on the wall with these ridiculous price hikes.
    At the same time though, anyone can still go, it just might take some a bit longer to save up. I know that for those used to going weekly though, that would be a huge change and a hard to make one at that.

    As for the country club sediment, the cost of many other common activities including regularly attending sporting events or skiing have been proven time and time again to be even more expensive than Disneyland.

  11. #116

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Because we have proof of that. Again, in the peak season, most APs are blocked out - all but the top tier. The parks are frequently operating on a 10 level of capacity then, with unbearable crowds and long waits.

    If the APs are blocked out, the traffic is obviously coming from those who buy hoppers/day tickets. Again, it doesn't solve the issue of the park teeming to capacity if those day ticket numbers aren't capped at a lower number.

    You do know that there are a little over 300,000 of the top-tier AP's, right?

    you can't get a proper estimate of AP vs. daily guest ratio without looking at legitimate facts.
    "If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that"





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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    I think the mentality that Disneyland would be treated as the 'local mall hangout' was not as wise to encourage by the cheaper APs.

    No one really enjoys going to the mall with Black Friday crows, but it seems like Disney is getting to the "Everyday is Black Friday crowds' level

    True, Walt wanted the park to be a place for everyone to enjoy, the AP prices have nothing to do with that other than the fact that they directly affect the crowd levels, and I think Walt would agree, overcrowding is fun for no one.

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Disneyland is a luxury, not a right.
    Exactly, it's a premium product and they market it as such.
    "What single word is the name of a magazine, a cereal, a board game, and a never-ending series of soul-crushing disappointments which slowly leech away your hope and idealism until you are nothing more than a bitter husk of a man?"

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    Do any of those complaining about the price, do the math to see just how cheap the AP is, even at the higher end, which say is $650 (dont know the exact price.).

    If you went just once per month, that comes to a very affordable 54 for each visit.

    I really honestly do not see how that is totally out there price wise.

    The airfare alone for me would cost more then the highest annual pass would.

    Year by year the US seems to want everything basically free, they don't understand economics, and recession or not, people are still going to the parks, if attendance was hurting, we would not see increases of this kind, we would see decreases, but clearly they are comfortable with the price increase.

    Regardless of what people think, management knows what they are doing to run a profitable business which at the end of the day is what needs to be done.

    I like Disney, but I am not one where small little items bother me, I understand the parks are a business there to make money, its not there to cater to everyone and their brother.

    Even in 1955 with being one of the first parks to charge admission, someone wasn't able to go.

    I bet back in 1955, the lower class still could not afford a trip to Disneyland.

    If spending money or not spending money at Disneyland is the worst of your issues, then your living a pretty good life.

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    Re: Say bye-bye to a 11-12 year Annual Passholder...

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyBono24 View Post
    Umm not really. They will just keep turning people off to their product and they will go elsewhere, like I am. I have a Knott's annual pass as well, which was a BARGAIN compared to this ridiculous $650 (or whatever it is) PAP now.

    Like someone said earlier, Disneyland is becoming more and more like a country club where they are pricing out a lot of the people who would love to go there... that's the complete OPPOSITE of Walt's vision.

    I guess you can't win either way... if it's affordable, then everyone would go more often and the park would be crowded as hell. If they keep raising the prices through the roof (in a recession) then people can't afford to go and soon you'll have only the upper-middle and upper class locals buying AP's, and the tourists will have to be filthy rich to afford a whole family worth of $200+ day passes (or however much they'll be in a few years at this rate). Sure the park won't be as crowded, because it will basically be a playground for spoiled, rich children with everyone else on the outside looking in. That's the saddest outcome of all, but the writing is on the wall with these ridiculous price hikes.
    How can you call Disneyland a country club when people are affording to pay Disneyland's prices and the park is as crowded as ever?

    As expensive as Disneyland is, the prices are within reach of most people's affordability, thus, the park is as crowded as ever.

    Knott's is quite cheap. Not only have people avoided going to Knott's, they aren't enticed by its park and its attractions. Six Flags have an even worse reputation. Universal Studios is more expensive, but they are offering discounts on the other hand. This might change when they add Harry Potter.

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