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  1. #16

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Swiss Family, the disney movie is how old now?
    The thing no one wants to discuss is that it was the Swiss Family Robinson story that was (and is) a literary classic. Who cares how old the movie is? The tree could have been built without having a movie made, and it would have been successful. I never saw the movie growing up, yet I was able to be part of the story. Again, the fact that it had a movie tie-in meant nothing to me and legions of others who enjoyed it.

  2. #17

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    The thing no one wants to discuss is that it was the Swiss Family Robinson story that was (and is) a literary classic. Who cares how old the movie is? The tree could have been built without having a movie made, and it would have been successful. I never saw the movie growing up, yet I was able to be part of the story. Again, the fact that it had a movie tie-in meant nothing to me and legions of others who enjoyed it.
    The story was a classic yes, but I'm fairly sure the tree was a movie-tie in.

    The tree would have been successful unto itself even without Swiss Family or Tarzan slapped onto it. Which is why the changing of the tie in didnt destroy the tree houses' 'theme'

    Just how Pirates is successful with or without Jack Sparrow. People like pirates, whether its an original story or has movie tie-ins. Its 'theme' is unchanged.
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
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  3. #18

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    I see.

  4. #19

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    My short answer:

    There are far too many guests now that have never even tasted the great taste of Disneyland Classic. They started visiting the park when (figuratively) Coke was already Coke Zero. Now Disney is sprinkling sweeter and more effective artificial sugar into the parks and these guests are dying to visit and visit frequently.

    Despite the righteousness of the complaints and concerns from Disneyland fans everywhere it falls on deaf ears due to all the cash register's ringing all around them. The only way to get their attention is to boycott but in my opinion it would make little difference unless this new generation of park visitors follow in tow. This is not likely, unfortunately.
    Many Bothans died to bring you these fastpasses.

  5. #20

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by G24T View Post
    There are far too many guests now that have never even tasted the great taste of Disneyland Classic.
    A great analogy!

  6. #21

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    I've begun to see DL as more of a them park "adventure" than "that place where the rides are," as I used to. That said, WD's design of leading one through the physical space (as he led us through stories in feature films) is largely still intact. The entrance leads under a bridge, which takes you to Main Street and -- is that a castle? -- leads you to the hub, from where all the lands are visible and you have a choice of yesterday, tomorrow or fantasy. The original visitors had no idea what to expect from a newfangled "theme park" so taking them by the hand and guiding them into it was a necessity, and that narrative device is still in play today and still works, if only subconsciously, on returning visitors.

  7. #22

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Us "under 30 crowd" (not for long scary as that sounds) appreciate a good theme, we also strive for it, but we strive for that balance between 'theme' and 'historical recreation', the relevant and irrelevant in what goes into this grand creation of Walt.
    What constitutes a "good theme" if not internal consistency? From my point of view, it seems that to a lot of people "good theme" only equates to aesthetic consistency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Yes I would also agree that the Swiss family Treehouse was better than the tarzan one (oddly enough) but, Swiss Family, the disney movie is how old now? Oddly enough hasnt been remade yet but not within the general consciousness of the public anymore as much as less than a decade old Tarzan Disney movie. So changed happend, it still fits its 'theme' of the surrounding area;, jungles, adventure, tree houses, but not the specific tie-in that those of an older generation have cherished memories of.
    The issue, as I see it, between the Swiss Family Robinson Treehouse versus Tarzan's Treehouse is not thematic fit, but the fundamental shift in the experience that occurred with the change, itself being a microcosm of what has happened across Disneyland. The Swiss Family Robinson Treehouse was an active experience that invited one to participate by inviting you to enter into the world and envisioning yourself living in the Treehouse. Tarzan's Treehouse is a passive experience. You see the characters and what is happening in a more structured narrative. You are not one of the film characters nor does it make sense to envision yourself as one, as you see the characters and their actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Walt knew, while he wanted his Main Street to evoke a nostalgia of the days gone by, he couldnt do it without the popular contemporary brands of the day, regardless of when those brands were founded.
    Why did Walt include brands? Because they were expected of a theme park or because he needed financial support for a project that cost far more than anticipated? The history of Disneyland was of changing these financial concessions. That is no longer the case with The Walt Disney Company. Yes, sponsorships generate revenue, but they are not necessary for the profitable operation of Disneyland. They're exclusive advertising contracts, not financial backers of a vastly smaller operation pioneering a new form of entertainment.

  8. #23

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by G24T View Post
    My short answer:

    There are far too many guests now that have never even tasted the great taste of Disneyland Classic. They started visiting the park when (figuratively) Coke was already Coke Zero. Now Disney is sprinkling sweeter and more effective artificial sugar into the parks and these guests are dying to visit and visit frequently.

    Despite the righteousness of the complaints and concerns from Disneyland fans everywhere it falls on deaf ears due to all the cash register's ringing all around them. The only way to get their attention is to boycott but in my opinion it would make little difference unless this new generation of park visitors follow in tow. This is not likely, unfortunately.
    The question is though, why would one boycott a product their happy with?

    Why would they listen to those going "This is how it used to be, its so much better", not knowing how it used to be themselves never having experienced.

    Or perhaps they think now is better than 'how it used to be'

    Its hard to quantify something like that regarding these kinds of websites with the actual 'normal' customer. We all are by far not 'normal' disney customers.
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
    -Dr. Strange

  9. #24

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    I'm part of the under 30 crowd...
    And I'm well over that...

    The only absolute certainty in life other than death is that things will eventually change. As we journey forward frequently we are witness to these changes, and by being witness to the changes we have an opportunity to compare them to things from our past, or to compare them to what went before.

    And I agree with Wren's statement that sometimes the changes are good and sometimes not so good. But again, the determination of if the change is good or not is completely subject to each individuals perspective. There might be changes that I think are wonderful and the best thing they have done in the park for years. Someone else might have the exact opposite opinion on the exact same change.

    Personal opinion.

    Subjective accountability.

    Do I miss some of the things in the park that I remember from my youth? Of course I do. I miss the People Mover, I miss the Skyway and many of the other things. But as much as I miss Monsanto's Journey Through Inner Space, the Star Tours attraction that took its place is a much better and more technologically advanced ride. I have fond memories of JTIS but I'll take the Star Wars attraction any day. Innoventions? Not so much... I'd give anything to have America Sings OR The Carousel of Progress even in its original form.

    What really, REALLY drives me nuts is that people take such sides on this, and try to make it a black and white issue when its simply a gray world. People who toss out the "I'm of a certain age and when Walt was alive" mentality seem to think that anything that Disney has come up with since about 1970 is crap, and that Walts vision has died and corporate Disney had taken over and has no soul and therefore they can't come up with an original, worthy idea.

    And yes, there is something to some of that. But not 100%.

    Then there is the other side of the coin, of those who profess to be younger and more hip and who say they need/want attractions and entertainment that is more of the now. They are so quick to spout the "Disneyland is not a museum" diatribe and are seen by some to have no respect or reverence for the past and for what Walt himself touched and put into the park.

    And to some extent, that is true also.

    To stand on one side of the tracks and say that any change is bad, and that it breaks theme or that Walt would never of done anything like that, or that its only the bean counters and pencil pushers in TDA who have no soul or connection to the history of the park doing this, and anyone who thinks other wise are wrong.... is in and of itself... also wrong.

    To stand on the other side and say that everything old should be replaced and that who cares if Starbucks takes over main street, and theme is over rated anyway and after all Walt is dead time to move on and get with the times.... is in and of itself... wrong too.

    And the most fundamental giant frustration point for me, is that there is and can never bee a middle ground on any of this. Because no matter what, there will always be at least two sides. Both sides will think that they are right and they are the only side and opinion that matter, when the fact of the matter is, it will always come straight down to a personal opinion.... is my opinion of the changes any more valid or correct than yours? If you reverse it... is YOUR opinion of if the changes are good or bad any more valid or correct than mine?

    Walt is dead. Change is going to happen regardless of if we want it to or if we like it or not. Its the nature of every single thing on this planet to keep moving and growing and changing and evolving. Like it hate it, its going to happen. The best we can do is acknowledge it, and acknowledge and respect both sides, without taking umbrage to the thoughts of others just because they are not the thoughts of you.
    Last edited by penguinsoda; 12-14-2012 at 02:09 PM.




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  10. #25

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    That is a great post Pengy
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
    -Dr. Strange

  11. #26

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Steve, I think the main thing is, America isn't the America of Walt's time. It isn't even the America of Reagan's era. No kid presently visiting knows what the park was like before DCA and Downtown Disney.

    Perhaps the changes feel as abrupt to you as the New Coke announcement (which I lived through my sophomore year in college), but for the most part, the changes have been slow and gradual.

  12. #27

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by wild ol' dan View Post
    i reckon i'll be takin' that slow journey down the rivers of america on the ol' mark twain, enjoying myself and lovin' the memories, the nostalgia, of the good ol' days. I'll be happy...if a tree don't fall on me.
    Ha!

  13. #28

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by Sambo View Post
    I will have to disagree with Wren on one point... "what could have turned into a good conversation." I think there are two pretty clear points thus far in this continuum of thought about change and Disneyland. This could be a very good foundation for discussion. Conflict is not always a bad thing as it often foundational to art, structure, and in this case - thought.
    Exactly. Isn't what the purpose of a discussion board is? To share and exhange stories, ideas, and viewpoints? When you encounter a view that's different from yours, let it provoke thought and challenge your ideas. You don't have to agree with the mindset presented in a certain post, but let it be the opportunity to explore your own feelings and opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    For good or bad, the Disney of Yesterland, isnt coming back. I dont see that as a bad thing, there was good back then, but there is also good now.
    There was a post a while ago (I don't remember who the poster was) that really summed up my feeling on the impossibility of the old Disneyland returning. We don't want an exact recreation of the Disneyland of the past. We want a Disneyland that reflects the levels of style, imagination, creativity, story, artistry, character, sophistication, and immersiveness of the past.

  14. #29

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by gatheringrosebuds View Post
    We don't want an exact recreation of the Disneyland of the past. We want a Disneyland that reflects the levels of style, imagination, creativity, story, artistry, character, sophistication, and immersiveness of the past.
    Exactly.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
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    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  15. #30

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by gatheringrosebuds View Post
    We want a Disneyland that reflects the levels of style, imagination, creativity, story, artistry, character, sophistication, and immersiveness of the past.
    Maybe I'm wearing the rose colored glasses but...all those descriptions listed aren't they what we see today? I know that Disney is very well known for having all these qualities. Minus some qualities in customer service on the rare occasion (for me anyway). Maybe some won't agree with that but Disney has all those qualities for me and I'm sure a few others.

    And as Pengy said, change is inevitable. Disneyland and the company have to adapt with the times. I don't think that can be helped.

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