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  1. #61

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    Beautifully said Mr. Wiggins! I know we have newer members here, but after all these years it amazes me that the accusation of not wanting change still gets trotted out. I just do not understand why this always happens in these discussions. It's never been about change or no change, but the nature of change.
    Exactly!
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  2. #62

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by gatheringrosebuds View Post
    We don't want an exact recreation of the Disneyland of the past. We want a Disneyland that reflects the levels of style, imagination, creativity, story, artistry, character, sophistication, and immersiveness of the past.
    Exactly right.


    Quote Originally Posted by clippers6 View Post
    Since the end of the Eisner era I would say that the changes have been a mixed bag slightly in favor of being improvements. Keep in mind that in many cases they've also had to deal with serious declines that were/are a legacy of the Eisner period. I think it's much more appropriate to approach any changes today with cautious optimism than with the attitude that any upgrade will turn out to be a downgrade.
    I don't disagree with this in principle. But every time it appears Disney is about to get its act together, they make another boneheaded move -- like upping the Candlelight Procession tradition to 20 nights, canceling the traditional Christmas party and putting out an employee memo that lies about the reason for it -- and it becomes obvious that beneath the hood nothing really has changed.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 12-15-2012 at 01:04 PM.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
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  3. #63

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    I don't disagree with this in principle. But every time it appears Disney is about to get its act together, they make another boneheaded move -- like upping the Candlelight Procession tradition to 20 nights, canceling the traditional Christmas party and putting out an employee memo that lies about the reason for it -- and it becomes obvious that beneath the hood nothing really has changed.
    The current management group has treated cast members poorly. I know many think too much is blamed on One Disney, but in terms of how the cast is treated I do feel One Disney deserves much of the blame. This will likely come back to bite them one day once they realize they drove off a lot of talent. I think Candlelight has been a mixed bag. It was a hasty decision that wasn't well thought out but it has had the benefit of spreading out the crowds. I think it characterizes the current situation: two steps forward, one step back, but every once in awhile they do knock one out of the park. Not that there isn't room for improvement, but I give them a lot more credit than the Eisner/Pressler team.

  4. #64

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by clippers6 View Post
    The current management group has treated cast members poorly. I know many think too much is blamed on One Disney, but in terms of how the cast is treated I do feel One Disney deserves much of the blame. This will likely come back to bite them one day once they realize they drove off a lot of talent. I think Candlelight has been a mixed bag. It was a hasty decision that wasn't well thought out but it has had the benefit of spreading out the crowds. I think it characterizes the current situation: two steps forward, one step back, but every once in awhile they do knock one out of the park. Not that there isn't room for improvement, but I give them a lot more credit than the Eisner/Pressler team.
    Agreed.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  5. #65

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    I have yet to read all the postings, but I love the analogy to Coke; since as a matter of fact, I go out of my way to drink not just original Coke, but the REAL Coke imported from Mexico with actual sugar rather than corn syrup (indeed, they did change the formula and nobody noticed), in glass bottles, of the correct (trademarked) shape to effectively break the corbonation as its imbibed, perfectly cold of course. More and more frequently its now what is served in hipster foodie spots. You gotta go find and then support the good stuff. The mind reals at the layers of irony involved here. So call me a purist, especially in regards to Disneyland.
    Yet, I can't wait for Starbucks on Main Street. It currently says Nestlť all over it, so who cares about some different logos. They design very nice places, and serve a far better quality product than what is there now, so I'm not worried about sullying the park over this one. There have always been sponsored product placement throughout Disneyland. (Brawny Paper towels, in the woods, serving sawdust tasting burgers? Now there's some commercial clash deflecting a degrading ideology for ya.)
    There are no rules, it's all in how it's handled.



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  6. #66

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    Beautifully said Mr. Wiggins!
    I concur. Brilliantly accurate.







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  7. #67

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    While it is important to develop new technologies and move forward, it is a sad and dangerous thing to discard the Disney legacy simply to make more money. In the past, the creative process utilized by The Walt Disney Company was used primarily to create the best product possible. To make something at Disney was to make something that would last nearly forever. In our modern era, life is more fast-paced, and the things we use to make our daily lives easier are becoming more and more disposable. Clothing, food, appliances, even our cars are made to be used and then thrown away. It wasnít always that way. In the past, and for many years, appliance repair shops were a common sight in most American towns. A television set, refrigerator, or automobile were large investments for people, and when they broke down, they were taken to said repair shops. Today, however, things have become so inexpensive and readily available that itís cheaper to discard something when it breaks, rather than have it repaired. Itís the same way at Disney. In the past, it took many years to create an animated Disney film. Each frame of a film was done by hand; the end result was a masterpiece that can withstand the test of time. It was a very expensive and time consuming process. But, today, we have cheap computers to do all the work for us. At the Walt Disney Studios, films and television shows are cranked out almost daily. But, unlike their counterparts of years ago, todayís Disney films and television shows are disposable. They arenít meant to last. They are meant to have a limited shelf life, and then when consumers get tired of them, the films and tv shows are tossed into the garbage and forgotten. As Iger is so aware, consumer tastes are fickle and fleeting. Hence the avalanche of Disney television channels, movie, and merchandise that are available everywhere you look. Itís sad to think that once upon a dream, the Disney name meant quality and excellence. Nowadays, itís just another brand on the shelf at the grocery store.



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  8. #68

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Who says "Disneyland must never be touched?" Those of us who were adult Disneyland fans in the decades before Eisner always looked forward to Disneyland changing. We became used to Disneyland constantly changing for the better. Changes that gave us not only more than we expected, but more than we could imagine. The Viewliner became the Monorail. The Phantom Boats became the Submarine Voyage. Tomorrowland '55 became Tomorrowland '67. Fantasyland '55 became Fantasyland '83. Cam-and-lever figures became Audio Animatronics. The Tiki Room, Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln, Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion were mindblowing in their day.

    Year after year, Disneyland was an ever-changing showcase of progress, a place of constant plussing. "Change For The Better" was the standard that Disneyland held itself to. "Change For The Better" was the standard that we expected as kids, teenagers and adults.

    In comparison, much of the change Disney has offered in the last two decades is change for the worse. Tomorrowland '67 became Tomorrowland '98. America Sings became Innoventions. Submarine Voyage thru Liquid Space became the Finding Nemo Underwater Kiddie Video. Swiss Family Treehouse became a Tarzan Disney Store display. Tahitian Terrace became Aladdin's Oasis, which became a ghost restaurant. PeopleMover became Rocket Rods, which became a ghost attraction. The Motorboat Cruise was replaced with... a smoking area. The Skyway was replaced with... nothing. Landmarks like Fort Wilderness and Cascade Peak were allowed literally to rot. Unique, land-specific merchandise was replaced by generic character crap in every store. Year after year, until it became obvious that when Disney made a change, the result would often be worse than what it replaced. Until it became clear that to today's Disney Corporation, "change" is just an excuse for jamming brands, brands and more brands into rides, stores and restaurants, whether they fit or not. Until "upgrade" became a code word for downgrade.

  9. #69

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    For those mentioning current management, do you remember (or know of if too young to remember) the much reviled Strategic Planning Unit? What would you think of a guy who started in and ultimately led that group being in charge of Disney's theme parks?

  10. #70

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Who says "Disneyland must never be touched?"...
    A beautifully-written and stated post, Mr Wiggins.

  11. #71

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    What I got most from Steve's opening post was the last paragraph. Coke was a quality and trusted product for decades and they tried to make themselves better by switching immediately to account for the new consumers' changing tastes. What's amazing is that if they slowly changed the flavor in a slight manner, the public " would never know" and accept the New Coke with open arms.

    It often feels like Disney is using this recipe and slowly adding more sugar or removing a spice or upping the carbonation of it's product. Putting Jack in POTC or fairy tale characters in IASW or Starbucks on mainstreet aren't going to cause picketing or a widespread boycott, but a general different feeling in the product. Coke's reasoning for doing this was to genuinely try and appease the changing tastebuds of new clients and compete with Pepsi. The feeling I get from Disney's changes is to squeeze its patrons of every last buck they have and pad their coffers with sponsors at any cost.

    Maybe it's because my eyes no longer feeling I'm shrinking in a microsope. Maybe it's because my mind won't allow me to think I'm actually in a rocket to Mars. Perhaps it's because now I have to tell the kids they can't have a souvenier in every single shop we're forced to exit into. Either way I feel like I'm getting pinched at not only the cost of losing nostalgia, but for the sake of getting every nickel they can from me.

  12. #72

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Who says "Disneyland must never be touched?"
    You kidding? That happens all the time on these forums, even without Pressler/Eisner, your favorite scapegoats running the show. Even if its something good, or something try to at least alleviate a problem that was made by these two. Theres always a kneejerk thread in response to anything these days.

    Turning the Fantasyland theater back into a theater, putting the princesses in a 'ghost area'; multiple pages of threads attacking it, not even giving it thought on how it could work, or how it revitalize an area. Most of the arguments were clinging on 'how it used to be' instead of 'what it could be'

    Again all I see are opinions of attractions you liked back in the day turned into attractions that you personally don't like, but others might. That's not a 'downgrade' except in your mind, Submarines became dead attraction for years, then was brought back as Nemo. The Skyway? You overlook that most theme parks dont even have those anymore due to safety concerns.

    Yes, there were a lot of bad things that happened in the early ninteys, bad things that apparently haven't gotten over no matter what the management tries to do now with their rededication to quality that seems to be going on, turning DCA from a failure into something thats pretty good, Star Tours being plussed, you forgot about the addition of Indiana Jones entirely, Splash Mountain is a quality ride.

    You say Disneyland 'must never be touched' but whenever I come on here, there is a firestorm if they even 'poke' something about Disneyland, even without the Management Who Must Not Be Named in charge anymore.

    The 90s are over, they're doing better (at least in the case of Disneyland, WDW is a different story entirely) at least by those standards set.

    So pardon me if I don't buy that line entirely.
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
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  13. #73

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by aashee View Post
    ...It often feels like Disney is using this recipe and slowly adding more sugar or removing a spice or upping the carbonation of it's product. Putting Jack in POTC or fairy tale characters in IASW or Starbucks on mainstreet aren't going to cause picketing or a widespread boycott, but a general different feeling in the product. Coke's reasoning for doing this was to genuinely try and appease the changing tastebuds of new clients and compete with Pepsi. The feeling I get from Disney's changes is to squeeze its patrons of every last buck they have and pad their coffers with sponsors at any cost...
    Bingo.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  14. #74

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    The public forgave Coca-Cola, when they went back to the original Coke recipie

    Disneyland had its 'New Coke' phase, but now its getting back to its "Original Formula" in general, but its still being blamed for "New Coke".

    Will the forgiveness ever come?
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
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  15. #75

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    Re: Disneyland, nostalgia, change, relevance and New Coke

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    For those mentioning current management, do you remember (or know of if too young to remember) the much reviled Strategic Planning Unit? What would you think of a guy who started in and ultimately led that group being in charge of Disney's theme parks?
    Would you happen to mean Mr. Tom Staggs??
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