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  1. #76

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Perhaps we're missing the nostalgia of progress. This may sound contradictory but if we're going by Walt's original vision for the park, he included progress beyond his time.

    "Whenever I go on a ride, I'm always thinking of what's wrong with the thing and how it can be improved."

    "Disneyland will never be completed. It will continue to grow as long as there is imagination left in the world."

    Even in Walt's time there were attractions that were closed down.
    1955– 1956 Tomorrowland Boats
    1955– 1956 Mickey Mouse Club Circus
    1955– 1956 Stage Coach / Rainbow Mountain Stage Coaches
    1955– 1960 Space Station X 1 renamed Satellite View of America in 1958
    1955– 1960 Conestoga Wagons
    1955– 1962 Main Street Shooting Gallery
    1955– 1966 Clock of the World (Tomorrowland)
    1955– 1966 Monsanto Hall of Chemistry 1955–1960
    1956– 1958 Junior Autopia
    1956– 1963 Mineral Hall
    1957– 1966 Midget Autopia
    1961– 1966 Flying Saucers
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  2. #77

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Algernon View Post
    I guess he's right. Excuse me while I get some paint and update the Mona Lisa. I think shorter hair, sunglasses and some fake eyelashes would do wonders for her, and it would attract younger art critics. And the Blue Boy? Some baggy pants and a backwards baseball hat would make him look a lot more trendy. Of course, that would be changing him from the 1970's Brady Bunch look from his last refurbishment...
    So, you're saying that instead of honoring Walt's admonition to not treat Disney like a museum, we should very literally and specifically think of it as a museum?

  3. #78

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    I am all for progress. That said, I am not sure that Tom Staggs is for progress, as much as expediency and profit. I have heard for years people chat "Disneyland is not a museum" to justify some idiotic management decision that closed down something enjoyable in the name of saving money.
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  4. #79

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Change is inherent in any non-static entity. That being said, change is not the same thing as an improvement. For example, for some time the Disneyland stores have had the same selection of merchandise regardless of where you are in the park. Perhaps a few stuffed animals different, but far too much of a monolithic setting. As for Disneyland itself (I can't speak to WDW as I've never been there) over the past 30 years it has gone through some terrible times of poor management, poor maintenance and questionable "efficiency" measures. Those changes were indeed changes but they made the Park worse not better. The question is, when a ride, a way of hiring and training employees and managers works for X number of years, to change that one should take pause. Go slow, make sure it works - in the long run and not just the next quarters bottom line - and then polish the new approach/product until it meets the Disney standard.

    Disneyland and I assume WDW's New Fantasyland owes it's image, history and organizational ethic to an earlier Disney visionary and that needs remembering.

    Let's hope that the new "visionaries" for Disney look, occasionally, into the eyes of the guests, especially the young ones. It'd be interesting to see one of the "suits" just once stop and ask a 6 or 8 year old if he or she was having fun. If the guest needed any help. You'd be amazed how much difference a smiling Disney cast member's countenance has on guests. I know the "suits" are management but every manager I ever worked with who lost sight of who he was trying to serve, failed the organization, the customers and himself.

  5. #80

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by APJ1127 View Post
    Perhaps we're missing the nostalgia of progress. This may sound contradictory but if we're going by Walt's original vision for the park, he included progress beyond his time.

    "Whenever I go on a ride, I'm always thinking of what's wrong with the thing and how it can be improved."

    "Disneyland will never be completed. It will continue to grow as long as there is imagination left in the world."

    Even in Walt's time there were attractions that were closed down.
    1955 1956 Tomorrowland Boats
    1955 1956 Mickey Mouse Club Circus
    1955 1956 Stage Coach / Rainbow Mountain Stage Coaches
    1955 1960 Space Station X 1 renamed Satellite View of America in 1958
    1955 1960 Conestoga Wagons
    1955 1962 Main Street Shooting Gallery
    1955 1966 Clock of the World (Tomorrowland)
    1955 1966 Monsanto Hall of Chemistry 19551960
    1956 1958 Junior Autopia
    1956 1963 Mineral Hall
    1957 1966 Midget Autopia
    1961 1966 Flying Saucers
    The reasons Walt closed those early Disneyland rides have nothing to do with the reason Staggs closed Snow White -- any more than the business model and operating philosophy of Walt's Disneyland has anything to do with that of the Staggs regime.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  6. #81

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Yes, I agree with Stagg's statement. Some things have served a purpose in the past and just have to go. Safety requirements, age, change of audience and trends are all factored in decisions to remove some things. Some have worked(e.g. Thunder Mountain), others haven't (e.g. Light Magic). If you don't try new things, it's just the same old stuff. Walt understood it was important to remember the past, but also look to improve on things for the future.

  7. #82

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    I'll take nostalgia which would be a whole lot better than multi billion dollar purchases for which our ticket prices are raised accordingly.
    I'll take nostalgia over "One Disney".
    I'll take nostalgia because it's not "Next Gen".
    I'll take nostalgia rather than a merchandise cart in every corner of Disneyland.
    I'll take nostalgia as is most of the time rather than "improving" on 20 straight days of Candlelight Procession.
    Nostalgia is a more useful tool than PR campaigns.

  8. #83

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Meh. Staggs isn't concerned about having his name remembered for all time. No one will be nostalgic over his reign of Disney.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  9. #84

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    I think a lot of us are looking at it differently and maybe should take a step back (me included). This is the Magic Kingdom we're talking about. The #1 most visited park in the world... right?

    With that many people visiting, why should ANY thing based on Snow White not hold its weight? Is Florida not plussing the ride? Is there "too much to do" in the Magic Kingdom? Hardly.

    I think there's a couple of things to consider:
    1) Is there too many people and too few things to do? Thus, people are stuck waiting in line for the major attractions and not able to experience the smaller attractions such as Snow White?

    2) Is there not enough variety in Magic Kingdom? Are too many guests are doing all the "important things" and park hopping elsewhere?

    3) Is Snow White too old fashioned for the modern family?



    Of course, there's probably other factors at play and maybe Snow White in Florida has just overstayed its welcome. I just don't know.


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  10. #85

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Keeping something the same is not always nostalgia.
    Change is not always progress.

  11. #86

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    I think a lot of us are looking at it differently and maybe should take a step back (me included). This is the Magic Kingdom we're talking about. The #1 most visited park in the world... right?
    I agree, they seem to think that Tom Staggs' saying that it's not all about nostalgia means it's not about nostalgia, period.

    Would you rather have the same old stuff?
    My top favorite Disneyland attractions:

    1. Big Thunder Mountain Railroad
    2. Pirates of the Caribbean
    3. Splash Mountain
    4. Mad Tea Party
    5. Peter Pan's Flight
    6. Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin

  12. #87

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneylandfan85 View Post
    Would you rather have the same old stuff?
    I'd rather not have the same old false dichotomy presented as a defense of Disney's marketing-driven status quo.

    It's been made crystal clear on this forum for over half a decade that "Disney purists" do not want "the same old stuff." But no matter how often, how clearly, how comprehensively and how eloquently it is explained, Disney's defenders continue to fall back on the same either-or fallacy -- the same fallacy of false choice -- as Disney management's groupthink-alikes.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  13. #88

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by film975 View Post
    Look on the bright side. Yes, Disney World lost its original Snow White ride. But they are getting an awesome roller coaster in return. You really can't have two Snow White rides in the same park. And I imagine that elements from the original ride will be repurposed for the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train.
    Well, since I don't like roller coasters that's not much of a trade for me. I'd rather see a show / ride like the Haunted Mansion that is amazing in it's design and concept than to go on something that leaves me with the same feeling I can get on the local state fair rides. Basically a roller coaster is a roller coaster is a roller coaster....
    ....If you can dream it, you can do it.--Walt Disney

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  14. #89

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    I'd rather not have the same old false dichotomy presented as a defense of Disney's marketing-driven status quo.

    It's been made crystal clear on this forum for over half a decade that "Disney purists" do not want "the same old stuff." But no matter how often, how clearly, how comprehensively and how eloquently it is explained, Disney's defenders continue to fall back on the same either-or fallacy -- the same fallacy of false choice -- as Disney management's groupthink-alikes.
    If with your 'comprehensive and eloquent' arguments, that over the years people still think that the 'purist' want the 'same old stuff', perhaps that indeed what you all actually want, because if it was otherwise; people wouldn't constantly believe that you're arguing for no change, ever.

    The 'purisits' are giving off this viewpoint even if it may or may not be their viewpoint, hence why that argument is always brought up. It appears that's what you guys are arguing for.

    So maybe your arguments arent so 'comprehensive or eloquent' after all, if the casual reader, or even non casual reader comes off as 'they want the Park to be a museum"
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
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  15. #90

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    I think we all agree that Disneyland was always expected to evolve. Even Walt wanted that.

    But there was a place for nostalgia in there too. I mean, wasn't Main St. a nostalgic dedication to Walt's hometown? Isn't there nostalgia written all over Frontierland? A nod to the nostalgic was even presented in Tomorrowland as part of the Carousel of Progress.

    Nostalgia isn't a bad thing. In fact, it, along with the look to the future, adventure, and fantasy is what Disney was created to be. Some of us would like to see that trend continue.

    From what I can tell, there has been a distinct paradigm shift at the park. Many of these have been discussed at length on these boards.

    IMO, Disneyland has become more about the here and now. At the crux of it are present day movies (or at least, movies that seem to have themes that are very current).

    The park doesn't seem to be all that focused on the nostalgic anyway, so why the powers that be who are concerned with what the "purists" want is beyond me? They're not doing what the "purists" want anyway, so move on.

    Besides, I think there can be a difference between being a "purist" and being nostalgic. Sure, when it comes to things Disney, nostalgia can play a part in the purist mentality.
    But only to the degree that we want to see Disneyland continue on in that vein that made it so unique. A blending of entertainment and education. Not just movies. And I believe that this can be done.

    Since Disneyland was so unique, it's hard to separate what made it so special from present times. We do have to look to the past a little bit because Disneyland was so unique.

    Many of us don't want to see it turn into another Universal Studios. We want it to continue on in that trend that made it special, but see it done with the technology we have available to us today.

    So yes, change is fine. As long as it's change for the good. Not just an overlay. Or some movie-based attraction. Disneyland has (or at least they had) the capability of so much more.

    Personally I think people get nostalgic when they don't see anything in the present that works to the degree they know it can.

    Do we have to bring back ATIS? No. But how about we bring in something that is more than just movie-based? You do that, and I know a lot of purists (who aren't so much longing for past attractions but want what they embodied!) will be happy. It would capture what has made Disneyland special and what would continue to make the park different and unique.

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