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  1. #106

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    I still "waste my time on Snow White." You always need rides to add some cushion in between the big ones. Peter Pan's line is 45 minutes? Snow White's line is only ten minutes, and it's a better ride in my opinion. For the record, Disneyland's Snow White usually has a five to ten minute wait. During my last visits, the line filled up the entire waiting area.

  2. #107

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    I will play devils advocate and ask a simple question:

    The meet and greets have show to be VERY popular among the Disney guests and important to the vacationing experience as evidenced by 1-2 hour waits for the more popular characters.


    Disney has chosen to close an attraction that has not preformed well in recent years, as evidenced by the lower ridership and general short wait time in favor of opening a better, more appropriately themed meet and great experience.

    Why should Disney keep an unpopular attraction open, in the face of an opportunity to increase guest satisfaction?

  3. #108

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    I will play devils advocate and ask a simple question:

    The meet and greets have show to be VERY popular among the Disney guests and important to the vacationing experience as evidenced by 1-2 hour waits for the more popular characters.


    Disney has chosen to close an attraction that has not preformed well in recent years, as evidenced by the lower ridership and general short wait time in favor of opening a better, more appropriately themed meet and great experience.

    Why should Disney keep an unpopular attraction open, in the face of an opportunity to increase guest satisfaction?
    I think what's in question is the assumption that Snow White "has not performed well in recent years." By exactly what measure has it not performed well? By exactly what standards is Snow White "unpopular?"

    It's a long road of anecdotal inference to reach the conclusion
    that closing a classic ride that appeals to all age groups, and substituting a franchise brand character meet-and-greet targeted to the little girl demographic, is anything other than another marketing-driven devolution of a Disney Park, covered by a PR smoke screen of "guest satisfaction."
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
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  4. #109

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    I think what's in question is the assumption that Snow White "has not performed well in recent years." By exactly what measure has it not performed well? By exactly what standards is Snow White "unpopular?"

    It's a long road of anecdotal inference to reach the conclusion
    that closing a classic ride that appeals to all age groups, and substituting a franchise brand character meet-and-greet targeted to the little girl demographic, is anything other than another marketing-driven devolution of a Disney Park, covered by a PR smoke screen of "guest satisfaction."
    If there isn't people in line for it, its not popular.

    Pretty simple. Compare Snow White and Peter Pan at DL, hour plus for Pan, 10 minutes at the most for Snow White. Popularity measure right there, no tinfoil hats involved.
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
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  5. #110

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    If there isn't people in line for it, its not popular.

    Pretty simple. Compare Snow White and Peter Pan at DL, hour plus for Pan, 10 minutes at the most for Snow White. Popularity measure right there, no tinfoil hats involved.
    Not that simple. Pan is more popular but it is also the slowest loader and has the lowest capacity of the dark rides.
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  6. #111

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneymike View Post
    Not that simple. Pan is more popular but it is also the slowest loader and has the lowest capacity of the dark rides.
    Well yes aside from technical issues and ride design, but still.

    Empty rides are more people in the walkways or in the line for other rides, making those lines longer.

    Space is always a premium in a place like this.
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
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  7. #112

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Coheteboy View Post
    If it's JUST about nostalgia, then nothing will change. So in that mindset, Staggs is correct. But it cannot just be about change for the sake of change.

    See: 1998 Tomorrowland
    Well said.
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  8. #113

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    I think what's in question is the assumption that Snow White "has not performed well in recent years." By exactly what measure has it not performed well? By exactly what standards is Snow White "unpopular?"
    True enough, we as fans are not privy to the actual stats, but lets say for argument sake that Snow White has under preformed compared to it's Fantasyland co-rides; Would the decision to remove it be more acceptable if the ride was under-preforming? Sure we heard a lot of people saying that they liked the ride, they were fans and they hate the idea that an original ride was replaced by a simple meet and greet. But what if the general population likes meet and greets better? What if the desire to keep the antiquated ride is simply a facet of the people holding on to the nostalgia factor.

    While I'm against change for change sake, I have to wonder; is the snow white ride a ride capable of capturing the imagination of the current demographic in the same way that it did in the past? Or would the average guest get more from a meet and greet?


    It's a long road of anecdotal inference to reach the conclusion
    that closing a classic ride that appeals to all age groups, and substituting a franchise brand character meet-and-greet targeted to the little girl demographic, is anything other than another marketing-driven devolution of a Disney Park, covered by a PR smoke screen of "guest satisfaction."
    But just becuse you say it does mean it so. While the demographic may cater to the little girls, it still speaks volumes to the Disney consumer. You cannot blame Disney for giving the people something that they want. Furthermore if the ride actually appealed to every age then the ride would not have been shut down. Also, the current tastes and sensibilities could have changed. Maybe less blame should be put on the Disney corp and more be put on the average guest that prefers a simple meet and great over a classic ride.

  9. #114

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    On the whole, I agree with that statement. However I do have this to say;

    Companies have to evolve and stay current with the times, or else they lose money and die. I know this... sometimes things have to be let go and can't be kept around forever. For instance... Star Tours was a benchmark attraction, but after not going to Endor for more than 25+ years it was time to go. Luckily, the job was done right and an even better attraction based off the first one took it's place.

    Truly great companies can evolve to stay current as well as stay in touch with what made them successful in the first place. I'd like to see Disney stay in the latter camp.

  10. #115

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    By the way, for anybody who's interested, here's the original New York Times article in which the Tom Staggs quote appeared -

    Inside Disney’s New Fantasyland - Travel - New York Times

  11. #116

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Do guests at Walt Disney World even know to do anything if it didn't have a line? I sometimes wonder if they don't bother simply because nobody else did.


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  12. #117

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Interesting tidbit about Snow White from the article:

    Yet I did miss some of the vintage Disney: mainly Snow White’s Scary Adventures. Is something lost now that the ride is gone? Yes. A bit of, well, scariness. For that reason, many parents are glad it’s banished, and I understand. Still, that spooky ride was in the spirit of fairy tales as they are in books, before they are Disneyfied. Once upon a time, there was something to be said for that: a happy ending is meaningless if the journey is a cakewalk.
    Four pages dedicated to how great the new expansion is going to be, yet only a small paragraph detailing why Snow White should stick around. Vintage Disney she called it. "Vintage", a word typically saved for relics of a time past by. I suppose compared to the Next Gen innovations, Snow White would seem outdated by the average guest. But again, should a attraction simply exist because it serves as a reminder as to what people use to like? Hard too say I guess.

  13. #118

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    It's all about marketing and money: Disney Princesses are what Disney Consumer Products is selling to its branded-lifestyle kiddie consumer base, Snow White is not; a meet and greet is cheap to operate, a ride is not.

    For the beancounters running Disney Parks it's a no-brainer.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

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  14. #119

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Disney Consumer Products ..... branded-lifestyle kiddie consumer base
    Words like this make me want to punch somebody in the face. (Not you, Mr. Wiggins.)

  15. #120

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    Re: Tom Staggs Says -- "It Can't Just Be About Nostalgia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    It's all about marketing and money: Disney Princesses are what Disney Consumer Products is selling to its branded-lifestyle kiddie consumer base, Snow White is not; a meet and greet is cheap to operate, a ride is not.

    For the beancounters running Disney Parks it's a no-brainer.
    Agreed, but you are still missing the part where the consumer base is actually asking for it. They want meet and greets, they want Disney branded-lifestyles and more importantly they are willing to pay for it. I suppose it is the sign of the times, but we cannot expect Disney, a for profit company, to not cater to the wants of it's customers. I suppose the wise words of Ice T come to mind: "Don't hate the playa, hate the game".

    It should be noted that I am not for the removal of the Snow White Ride. I feel that if it was under-performing, they could have done something to spruce it up, breath new life into it, not simply remove it for a meet and great that I will likely never attend. 21 acres is a lot of space.

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