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  1. #31

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Retrocool View Post
    Most of the time, calls for "bringing back" a certain attraction are calls for bringing back the concept of that attraction - not so much bringing back an exact duplicate of the attraction as it existed X number of years ago, including its now-antiquated technology. Most of us who want something "brought back" are fully cognizant that it would be necessary, and would most likely be desirable (even by us old-timers) to update the attraction in question, both from a technological standpoint, and also from a design standpoint.

    It's kind of like all these movie franchises that are seeing "reboots" going on, whether it's Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, TRON, Planet of the Apes, Star Trek, or what have you. Nobody's really asking for us to go back to the way it was before exactly in the way it was before. We're just saying "let's bring back the idea - the concept - and let today's Imagineers, using their younger imaginations and technical talents, take it from there."

    We know that Disneyland will always need to expand and change as time passes, and we'll need new "shows" (as attractions are often called), but, much like a classic Broadway musical, we can revive a beloved show concept and let a new creative team interpret it for a new era and new audience, while still retaining that show's basic essence, and in this way, not only are new generations entertained, and not only can multiple generations share in the joy of experiencing a given attraction, but Walt's legacy is honored.
    But why not a new concept? Why is the familiar so much more appealing than the new? Is it any different than people who want movie based rides? A familiar concept in a new format. Why not something completely new? Especially us, who have no budgets and executives in our own imagination. Why do we still go back to the old in our own free minds? I still believe that nostalgia is the biggest reason and it affects how we experience the new.

    Like I said, if the castle was to be improved, or HM or POTC were to be replaced, nothing WDI could build would satisfy some people. No amount of improvement, quality, or imagination would be able to apease the purist. At least that is the outcome I would put my bets on. Why? Well in my opinion, its because of nostalgia.
    In the quest for quality, I have no problem with the characters footing the bill.

  2. #32

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinrar View Post
    But why not a new concept?
    Why the assumption that we're not interested in new concepts too?

    Please, do not assume that because we love classic attractions, that we're not also open to new ones. It's just not so.

    I'm certainly open to new ideas. But it's foolish to assume that every new idea is good or better simply because it's new, just as foolish as it is to assume that a classic idea is good or better simply because it's been around a long time. Every situation is different. Sometimes, the new idea is better than the old one. Sometimes the old one is better than the new one. It's all case-by-case. Not every classic attraction was a winner, even back in its day. Not every new attraction is a loser, either.

    I prefer a Disneyland that is filled with great ideas, not just "good enough" ones. Whether the idea came from the past or the present is immaterial to me. When I go to Disneyland, I want the whole place to be so great, so filled with ideas, so inspiring to my imagination and creativity, that I simply never want to leave. Old idea or new idea is beside the point - I want GREAT ideas.

  3. #33

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinrar View Post
    nothing WDI could build would satisfy some people.
    I think this is the most valid point ^^^

    Nothing will ever be built that will satisfy every single person. Whether they be a purist, a fan of new things, or anything else. There will always be a group with a problem. Disneyland could say "admission is free!", but then it exceeds capacity. Disneyland could say "we've reduced capacity so it's less crowded!", then people get turned away because the park is full. You could hand someone $5, and they'll say it's not enough, it's dirty, they're allergic to money... whatever. It's just the unfortunate way of reality!

    In the meantime, I'm going to pull a politician-style move and say that I adore some of the old, nostalgic rides as they are, but also love some new attractions and even overlays (HMH). There's hit and miss on both sides of the aisle.
    Last edited by KellyMcG86; 12-28-2012 at 10:46 PM. Reason: fixed quote

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  4. #34

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinrar View Post
    But why not a new concept?...

    ...if the castle was to be improved, or HM or POTC were to be replaced, nothing WDI could build would satisfy some people. No amount of improvement, quality, or imagination would be able to apease the purist. At least that is the outcome I would put my bets on. Why? Well in my opinion, its because of nostalgia.
    Yet another post that falsely labels the Disneyland "purist" as someone who doesn't want Disneyland to change, is blinded by nostalgia, and for whom "nothing WDI could build would appease" the replacement of classic rides -- conveniently ignoring the fact that countless posts on this forum (posts like this one) have make it clear that just the opposite is the case.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  5. #35

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Yet another post that falsely labels the Disneyland "purist" as someone who doesn't want Disneyland to change, is blinded by nostalgia, and for whom "nothing WDI could build would appease" the replacement of classic rides -- conveniently ignoring the fact that countless posts on this forum (posts like this one) have make it clear that just the opposite is the case.
    By definition, is a purist not someone who wants something "untouched"? I believe based on that, their post is not incorrect Perhaps we should use a different term?

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  6. #36

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by KellyMcG86 View Post
    By definition, is a purist not someone who wants something "untouched"? I believe based on that, their post is not incorrect Perhaps we should use a different term?
    Along with the "museum" and "nostalgia" labels, the bogus "purist" label is a convenient misrepresentation -- a strawman argument -- applied to Disney critics by Disney management and Disney defenders alike.

    Again, read this post.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  7. #37

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Along with the "museum" and "nostalgia" labels, the bogus "purist" label is a convenient misrepresentation -- a strawman argument -- applied to Disney critics by Disney management and Disney defenders alike.

    Again, read this post.
    I've read that post, and it's well said. I'm merely pointing out that it seems the term "purist" is being misused. Those who are applying it and those who are representing it both seem to have strayed from the literal meaning.

    Anyway, to the topic at hand, I think the quote is hopeful and inspirational as well as completely up to interpretation... much like Disneyland.

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  8. #38

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Yet another post that falsely labels the Disneyland "purist" as someone who doesn't want Disneyland to change, is blinded by nostalgia, and for whom "nothing WDI could build would appease" the replacement of classic rides -- conveniently ignoring the fact that countless posts on this forum (posts like this one) have make it clear that just the opposite is the case.
    I was well aware of the fact that most purists are people who claim to want the quality and theming of disneyland of old. What I am saying is basically that some change, regardless of how well executed or how much of walt era level of care, quality, and imagination is used, it would stil be unwelcome. And I believe nostalgia is the reason this and why I see so many harsh judgements for new offerings here. Obviously some if not most criticism is completely valid. But at the same time, I see some that I have to think are attributed to nostalgia.

    And for what its worth, it was that very post by you, Mr Wiggins, and the thread that I kept in mind when writing what I wrote. I do not believe the purists are blinded by nostalgia, that much is clear. But I do believe they tend to downplay how much it factors into their judgements.

    Of course this all my opinions and how I read into posts on the internet where intentions and mindsets are easily lost through text.
    In the quest for quality, I have no problem with the characters footing the bill.

  9. #39

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by KellyMcG86 View Post
    I think this is the most valid point ^^^

    Nothing will ever be built that will satisfy every single person. Whether they be a purist, a fan of new things, or anything else. There will always be a group with a problem. Disneyland could say "admission is free!", but then it exceeds capacity. Disneyland could say "we've reduced capacity so it's less crowded!", then people get turned away because the park is full. You could hand someone $5, and they'll say it's not enough, it's dirty, they're allergic to money... whatever. It's just the unfortunate way of reality!

    In the meantime, I'm going to pull a politician-style move and say that I adore some of the old, nostalgic rides as they are, but also love some new attractions and even overlays (HMH). There's hit and miss on both sides of the aisle.
    I'd have to agree with that. It's true what they say: you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please everybody all the time.
    My top favorite Disneyland attractions:

    1. Big Thunder Mountain Railroad
    2. Pirates of the Caribbean
    3. Splash Mountain
    4. Mad Tea Party
    5. Peter Pan's Flight
    6. Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin

  10. #40

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by KellyMcG86 View Post
    By definition, is a purist not someone who wants something "untouched"? I believe based on that, their post is not incorrect Perhaps we should use a different term?
    What the purists want untouched is the spirit, philosophy, seriousness and creativity that made Disneyland a cultural icon that forged a new creative medium.

  11. #41

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    I think this mantra has been misused and misinterpreted. And used to justify the removal of a lot of popular and well loved classic attractions. Walt was about change, but he equally loved and treasured the past too. I think this balance has gotten out of hand in recent years.
    Last edited by DisneyChrisDotCom; 12-29-2012 at 05:23 PM.
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  12. #42

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Emelius View Post
    I think this mantra has been misused and mus-interpreted. And used to justify the removal of a lot of popular and well loved classic attractions. Walt was about change, but he equally loved and treasured the past too. I think this balance has gotten out of hand in recent years.
    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    What the purists want untouched is the spirit, philosophy, seriousness and creativity that made Disneyland a cultural icon that forged a new creative medium.
    Bingo x 2.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  13. #43

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    No way is this quote negative. It;s something that Walt said that most of use believe in. Does Disney follow this concept? YES they do like it or not....Are they 100% no... Carsland BVS suggests they hit the nail on the head where as replacing CBJ with pooh shows they missed the mark. I am sure Walt replaced things while he was alive because he wasn't perfect either. Not everything Disney does is bad by any means at least IMO just we tend to be VERY picky here

  14. #44

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by biggsworth View Post
    No way is this quote negative. It;s something that Walt said that most of use believe in. Does Disney follow this concept? YES they do like it or not....Are they 100% no... Carsland BVS suggests they hit the nail on the head where as replacing CBJ with pooh shows they missed the mark. I am sure Walt replaced things while he was alive because he wasn't perfect either. Not everything Disney does is bad by any means at least IMO just we tend to be VERY picky here
    Again, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement! I do agree we tend to very finicky sometimes.
    My top favorite Disneyland attractions:

    1. Big Thunder Mountain Railroad
    2. Pirates of the Caribbean
    3. Splash Mountain
    4. Mad Tea Party
    5. Peter Pan's Flight
    6. Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin

  15. #45

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    Re: Has the phrase "Disneyland will never be completed..." become negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Along with the "museum" and "nostalgia" labels, the bogus "purist" label is a convenient misrepresentation -- a strawman argument -- applied to Disney critics by Disney management and Disney defenders alike.

    Again, read this post.
    Says the guy who constantly posts in a manner befitting a person who was beaten up by Eisner for lunch money.

    Of course its OK for your side to use the tried and true attacks against the defenders calling them ignorant, claiming things contrary to what your posts actually say "Oh change is ok, but dont you dare change anything if your name isnt 'Walt Disney'". Is there any change after 1966 to the park that you do approve of?

    Perhaps its best for you to simply keep reposting replies from lazyboy or steve, its really hard to take anything you say seriously when you type anything longer than 'bingo', when you sound like pundint-esque attack dog any other time

    Disney is an old company, almost 100 years old in about a decade or so, are there any successful companies that do things exactly like 'back in the day' that are still around, or still successful? Disney had to evolve with the times, and Walt gave guests of the 60s what they wanted, the company now is giving the guests what they want.

    If you want to blame anything, dont blame the company, blame the guests, they're not exactly full of imagination these days themselves, so they want story fed to them, they want tie ins, they want meet-and-greets, they want big new and flashy.

    Unfortunately thats just how it is these days, and Disney evolved to keep the park alive still. There is a gem every so often that holds up to the standards of days past (Indiana Jones, RSR, Star Tours), but if the park wasnt always overcrowded (guess they're doing something right) there are still attractions that arent visited that were originals, and thats not because they're bad or outdated; they're still as great as they ever were, its just not what people want anymore

    Perhaps the sad thing of that quote is that Disneyland is getting to be 'complete', because looking at Hollywood these days, even video games and printed media and other forms of entertainment, there isnt a whole lot of 'imagination' going around anymore.
    Last edited by Wren; 12-29-2012 at 11:51 PM.
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
    -Dr. Strange

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