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  1. #136

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Regarding this whole debate, I think most people are overlooking the fact that the majority of guests don't know FP's can be used at a later time than their window because the word 'between' is pretty crystal clear (that's why the FP lines aren't empty during parades and fireworks). I personally tend to disagree with the viewpoint that arriving late (or the whole FP system in general) increases standby lines but I DO think that it's unfair to have so many people getting around a pretty solid system at the expense of people not so in the know. Maybe Disney doesn't spell out that you can't arrive late, but the word 'between' is good enough for most people and I'd like to think that a free system should be utilized by everyone to the same extent, not work better for people who have the privilege of going more and learning how to manipulate it.

  2. #137

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Rules have two parts: 1) the actual rule, and 2) its enforcement.

    In this case, Disney has 1) left the door open to accommodate late arrivals, and 2) chosen not to enforce the late arrival time with anyone.

    A company memo comes around titled "No more overtime hours for employees," then the body of the letter says, "Facilities will no longer be available prior to opening for employees." Go home times comes along and you realize you're 5 minutes late to clock out and the owner says, "Don't worry, Im always staying late. Look at the memo. It says we won't be open early anymore. If you wanna stay late, that's fine. I'll pay any late overtime pay."

    If the employees take advantage and stay late for extra pay, are they breaking the rules?

  3. #138

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
    Regarding this whole debate, I think most people are overlooking the fact that the majority of guests don't know FP's can be used at a later time than their window because the word 'between' is pretty crystal clear (that's why the FP lines aren't empty during parades and fireworks).
    Actually, and this is from someone who has stood at Validator and at Merge and taken tickets, there is a SUBSTANTIAL rush to Fastpass after Parades, Fantasmic, and Fireworks! I would agree if Fastpass was new, but the system has been around a while and word has certainly spread that times are not clearly enforced.

    I personally tend to disagree with the viewpoint that arriving late (or the whole FP system in general) increases standby lines.
    Individuals have the ability to have their place "reserved" in one line while being able to stand in a second one. Not everyone does this, but a vast majority do in order to "get the most out of a day". If you stand in line A, and a friend of yours stands in line B to "save your spot"... doesn't your friend as a byproduct of standing there make Line B 1 person longer? Even if he/she doesn't ride, do they make that line longer simply by standing in it? Fastpass is doing the same thing on a MASSIVE scale. Attractions that have a Fastpass are constrained by Fastpass to maintain an internal line of 15 minutes... irrespective of the external "Standby" line length. And once tickets are out (which is by 1pm on busy days) the only option from that point forward is Standby. Crowds make long line, saving places makes those same lines even longer.
    Last edited by techskip; 01-11-2013 at 02:29 PM.
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  4. #139

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    Rules have two parts: 1) the actual rule, and 2) its enforcement.

    In this case, Disney has 1) left the door open to accommodate late arrivals, and 2) chosen not to enforce the late arrival time with anyone.

    A company memo comes around titled "No more overtime hours for employees," then the body of the letter says, "Facilities will no longer be available prior to opening for employees." Go home times comes along and you realize you're 5 minutes late to clock out and the owner says, "Don't worry, Im always staying late. Look at the memo. It says we won't be open early anymore. If you wanna stay late, that's fine. I'll pay any late overtime pay."

    If the employees take advantage and stay late for extra pay, are they breaking the rules?
    If the owner says "go home I'm not paying the overtime anymore" does the employee have the right to complain? The boss could chose to break the rule. If he gets caught he could be fired, you could be fired, or both. The enforcement of the rule does not negate the rule itself.

    Rules have 1 part... the rule itself... lack of enforcement of the rule doesn't negate it. A cop can chose to overlook a motorist going 5mph over the speed limit, but that doesn't negate the speeding law itself. A second cop could see the same situation, pull you over, and it won't matter that cop A didn't enforce it as long as the speed limit is clearly posted.
    Last edited by techskip; 01-11-2013 at 02:36 PM.
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  5. #140

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    If the owner says "go home I'm not paying the overtime anymore" does the employee have the right to complain?
    Nope. And I'm not complaining here. I'm arguing that the people who do it now aren't rule breakers or abusers. They're following 1) the cracked door Disney left in the rules and 2) that Disney openly doesn't enforce it.

    And this is coming from someone who has only done it once, only recently, and only about 20 minutes late--because the previous ride broke down. But I don't like the idea that people who do it regularly are somehow pulling one over on Disney. It may not be polite, but that's about it.

  6. #141

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    Nope. And I'm not complaining here. I'm arguing that the people who do it now aren't rule breakers or abusers. They're following 1) the cracked door Disney left in the rules and 2) that Disney openly doesn't enforce it.
    Disney didn't crack a door, they simply elected not to enforce the rule. To put this another way

    If you are speeding 5mph over the limit and the cop decides it's not worth it to pull you over does that mean you're not speeding? The limit is clearly posted. You are clearly going beyond that limit. Yet the limit itself was not enforced.

    Same with Disney

    You are given a 1hr window between 2 very specific times. You show up late. Whether or not Disney accepts the ticket has no bearing on the fact that you showed up late. You "broke" the rule. It is then Disney's decision if they will accept the ticket or not.

    A rule does not need to be enforced to be valid. The choice to break a rule makes the individual responsible for the repercussions. Disney previously did not enforce the rule. This led to a disregard for that rule. Disney now plans on enforcing the rule. They never changed the rule. It is still there... they just didn't enforce it previously.
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  7. #142

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Disney didn't crack a door, they simply elected not to enforce the rule. To put this another way

    If you are speeding 5mph over the limit and the cop decides it's not worth it to pull you over does that mean you're not speeding? The limit is clearly posted. You are clearly going beyond that limit. Yet the limit itself was not enforced.

    Same with Disney

    You are given a 1hr window between 2 very specific times. You show up late. Whether or not Disney accepts the ticket has no bearing on the fact that you showed up late. You "broke" the rule. It is then Disney's decision if they will accept the ticket or not.

    A rule does not need to be enforced to be valid. The choice to break a rule makes the individual responsible for the repercussions. Disney previously did not enforce the rule. This led to a disregard for that rule. Disney now plans on enforcing the rule. They never changed the rule. It is still there... they just didn't enforce it previously.
    That would be true except ignoring the "fine print". The guy that worked there said earlier that he specifically asked legal why it doesn't mention latecomers not being accommodated when it does mention early arrivals, and they told him it was to allow themselves room to allow latecomers if they wanted. I don't understand why people don't understand the significance of that. That's called "leaving the door open". It's only a rule when Disney wants it to be. Right now, it's not a rule.

    Anyway, this is getting pretty ridiculous. We're all wasting our time. I was hoping to convince some of you that this isn't a 100%, air tight, rock solid rule, but to each their own.

  8. #143

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    That would be true except ignoring the "fine print". The guy that worked there said earlier that he specifically asked legal why it doesn't mention latecomers not being accommodated when it does mention early arrivals, and they told him it was to allow themselves room to allow latecomers if they wanted. I don't understand why people don't understand the significance of that. That's called "leaving the door open". It's only a rule when Disney wants it to be. Right now, it's not a rule.

    Anyway, this is getting pretty ridiculous. We're all wasting our time. I was hoping to convince some of you that this isn't a 100%, air tight, rock solid rule, but to each their own.
    #1... I said that
    #2... It reserves the right FOR DISNEY to accept or reject the ticket. That has NO BEARING on whether or not the rule itself was broken. The rule itself is 100% solid. It is clearly spelled out. The Guest makes the decision to abide by the rule or break the rule. DISNEY in turn has RESERVED THE RIGHT to accept or reject a ticket that is outside of the rules. It's not a crack, or a loophole. They can make an exception. We, as Guests, can't.

    If a CM tells us we can show up late and we do and the Lead of that attraction says "No sorry" we have little recourse because the time is clearly spelled out on the ticket. I have seen Disney honor Fastpasses from previous days. They don't have to. They could say "no sorry". But they honored it to be nice. At no point did their case by case decision negate the rule itself. The rule was still in full effect for the public at large. Disney made a choice to exempt the individual in that specific situation, just like a cop that decides it isn't worth it to pull over the driver going an extra 5mph.
    Last edited by techskip; 01-11-2013 at 03:21 PM.
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  9. #144

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    If a CM tells us we can show up late and we do and the Lead of that attraction says "No sorry" we have little recourse because the time is clearly spelled out on the ticket. I have seen Disney honor Fastpasses from previous days. They don't have to. They could say "no sorry". But they honored it to be nice. At no point did their case by case decision negate the rule itself. The rule was still in full effect for the public at large. Disney made a choice to exempt the individual in that specific situation, just like a cop that decides it isn't worth it to pull over the driver going an extra 5mph.
    Exactly right. If for whatever reason a standing rule is not enforced on 99 people, those who have the authority to enforce it still have the discretion to enforce it or not enforce it on the 100th person. Non-enforcement, uneven enforcement or partial enforcement does not mean the rule itself is negated.


    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    The difference is the additional information about early arrivals DOES NOT CONFLICT with the remaining information. You are choosing to interpret 'well it doesnt say late..' - but that conflicts with the word 'between'. That's why the information about 'early return' is 'additional' information. It's clarifying info. It's actually redundant. You're trying to say because other redundant info is not listed, it's open to interpretation. No it's not - 'between' is there and that is all that is necessary to convey the constraints. The addition of the 'early' info does not necessitate the need to explicitly state about 'late' - its already covered. The ticket wording has never been a defining point about why there is leniency or what Disney allows for late returns. No one figured this out by going 'See.. disney didn't say no late!! so they must let me in!' and forced Disney's hand.

    As techskip, I, and others have said - late returns has always been reserved as a Guest Recovery strategy for Disney. Disney doesn't owe it to anyone - but they do it as a customer stratification issue. They do it universally without question because Disney won't train nor trust their CMs to make such decisions on their own.
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  10. #145

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    If the employees take advantage and stay late for extra pay, are they breaking the rules?
    you picked a horrible analogy.. because overtime is supposed to be approved, not just consumed at will.
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  11. #146

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Nobody's arguing Disney can't enforce it. They can do whatever they want, of course.

    This is all semantics at this point but I think you're all wrong when you say the rule exists and then is not enforced. This is the legal difference between de facto and de jure. If, for a decade, the rule exists but is unofficially not enforced in 100% of cases, well... you can make an argument that the rule doesn't exist at all.

  12. #147

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    But I don't like the idea that people who do it regularly are somehow pulling one over on Disney. It may not be polite, but that's about it.
    They aren't pulling one over on Disney - they know quite clearly that it happens. Just like they know people abuse the GAC cards too. They aren't oblivious to it - its about making choices about where to make a standard or not. The company is so risk adverse, and won't empower their front line CMs.. so they accept the negative of people gaming the system in lieu of risk of conflicts and penalizing legit scenarios.

    The normal situation would be 'well use common sense...' - Disney doesn't allow the CMs that kind of flexibility.. so Disney has to go 'all or nothing'
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  13. #148

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    If, for a decade, the rule exists but is unofficially not enforced in 100% of cases, well... you can make an argument that the rule doesn't exist at all.
    Try that defense on a speeding ticket in front of a judge and let me know how it turns out! You are free to make the argument but the rule is still in place. You are arguing that the rule should be striken since it isn't enforced... which means you are accepting that it is still "on the books" because otherwise why would someone need to argue and strike it? Enforcement doesn't validate or invalidate the rule.
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  14. #149

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Try that defense on a speeding ticket in front of a judge and let me know how it turns out! You are free to make the argument but the rule is still in place. You are arguing that the rule should be striken since it isn't enforced... which means you are accepting that it is still "on the books" because otherwise why would someone need to argue and strike it? Enforcement doesn't validate or invalidate the rule.
    No, you're wrong with this analogy, as the other poster when the same thing was posted earlier. Disney doesn't enforce this rule and hasn't enforced it in practice for 10 years. Going in front of a judge implies selective enforcement, which is not the case... there has been no enforcement whatsoever. For that reason you can say that for all intents and purposes, or de facto, the rule doesn't actually exist and has not existed for a decade.

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    Cool Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    you picked a horrible analogy.. because overtime is supposed to be approved, not just consumed at will.
    There's no perfect analogy. I could have gone with there's ban on all marijuana but some states have said they won't enforce it on people with small amounts...or sodomy laws on the books that states stopped enforcing, but that doesn't take into account the "fine print" issue.

    But again, a rule is about what is there and what isn't there. Disney has made it clear that there are exceptions to the rule as they see fit. They can decide if you can come late or not. Currently, you can show up any time after your start time. There is no refuting that. If Disney can decide if coming late is against the rules or not, as they have allowed themselves in the fine print, and then enforce it accordingly, then the rule is inherently flexible as to whether it exists or doesn't exist. Right now, it doesn't exist. I suppose one could technically call it an exception, but when Disney can choose to except it and everyone has been excepted for 10 years, that's something else.

    If one can't figure that out, forget about horrible analogies.

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