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  1. #151

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    No, you're wrong with this analogy, as the other poster when the same thing was posted earlier. Disney doesn't enforce this rule and hasn't enforced it in practice for 10 years. Going in front of a judge implies selective enforcement, which is not the case... there has been no enforcement whatsoever. For that reason you can say that for all intents and purposes, or de facto, the rule doesn't actually exist and has not existed for a decade.
    No... your argument is that the rule does exist and should be striken from the books based on the fact that it hasn't been enforced. Nothing changed in respect to the rule. What changed was the decision on whether or not to enforce it. California is currently dealing with a law that dates to the 1800's because of that very fact. De Facto is that it wasn't enforced because the crime was exceptionally rare. Reality is that someone got off the hook based on that very law, and they are now looking to strike said law!

    They tried de-facto because of how rarely the crime comes up. The judge struck it down because the law itself is on the books irrespective of how often it is enforced.
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  2. #152

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    There's no perfect analogy
    The speeding analogy is dead on. the motivations are different - but the observed behavior and effect of enforcement vs the rule or law are dead on.

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    If Disney can decide if coming late is against the rules or not, as they have allowed themselves in the fine print, and then enforce it accordingly, then the rule is inherently flexible as to whether it exists or doesn't exist
    This statement shows why you are having such a problem with it with other posters. Variance in enforcement DOES NOT CHANGE THE RULE. You say it above 'can decide if coming late is against the rules or not..' - when Disney opt's to not ENFORCE the rule, it didn't make the rule go away or change it. The rule is not 'inheriently flexible' - it's black and white. Where the flexibility is in enforcement.

    This is an important distinction - between enforcement and the rule/law- and exactly why you can't go into court and saying 'well, I speed every other day and they don't pull me over...'. Lack of enforcement does not redefine the rule or law.
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  3. #153

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    There's no perfect analogy. I could have gone with there's ban on all marijuana but some states have said they won't enforce it on people with small amounts
    Medical marajuana is a great analogy. Feds are currently shutting down dispensaries because local and state authorities refused to enforce a federal law. The law itself never changed. What changed was the decision to enforce it.
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  4. #154

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    No... your argument is that the rule does exist and should be striken from the books based on the fact that it hasn't been enforced. Nothing changed in respect to the rule. What changed was the decision on whether or not to enforce it. California is currently dealing with a law that dates to the 1800's because of that very fact. De Facto is that it wasn't enforced because the crime was exceptionally rare. Reality is that someone got off the hook based on that very law, and they are now looking to strike said law!

    They tried de-facto because of how rarely the crime comes up. The judge struck it down because the law itself is on the books irrespective of how often it is enforced.
    Nope, that's not my argument at all.

    My argument is that in practice the rule does not exist. The rule has not been enforced for more than a decade, and as such it does not, for any practical purpose, exist.

    Disney doesn't have law books, or at least any to which we have access, so claiming that it's "on the books" as a California law might be is a bit disingenuous. You can claim that the rule is "on the books" based on your reading of the passes, but that's an interpretation and should not be confused with an actual, written rule that exists anywhere.

    All I'm saying is that the rule is, as of now, that you can enter any time after the window starts. For all practical purposes, that is the current 'law.'

  5. #155

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    Nope, that's not my argument at all.

    My argument is that in practice the rule does not exist. The rule has not been enforced for more than a decade, and as such it does not, for any practical purpose, exist.

    Disney doesn't have law books, or at least any to which we have access, so claiming that it's "on the books" as a California law might be is a bit disingenuous. You can claim that the rule is "on the books" based on your reading of the passes, but that's an interpretation and should not be confused with an actual, written rule that exists anywhere.

    All I'm saying is that the rule is, as of now, that you can enter any time after the window starts. For all practical purposes, that is the current 'law.'
    What do you mean Disney has no law books? The rule is printed on every single Fastpass ticket you get, and that you should return between a certain time...

  6. #156

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    The speeding analogy is dead on. the motivations are different - but the observed behavior and effect of enforcement vs the rule or law are dead on.



    This statement shows why you are having such a problem with it with other posters. Variance in enforcement DOES NOT CHANGE THE RULE. You say it above 'can decide if coming late is against the rules or not..' - when Disney opt's to not ENFORCE the rule, it didn't make the rule go away or change it. The rule is not 'inheriently flexible' - it's black and white. Where the flexibility is in enforcement.

    This is an important distinction - between enforcement and the rule/law- and exactly why you can't go into court and saying 'well, I speed every other day and they don't pull me over...'. Lack of enforcement does not redefine the rule or law.
    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Medical marajuana is a great analogy. Feds are currently shutting down dispensaries because local and state authorities refused to enforce a federal law. The law itself never changed. What changed was the decision to enforce it.
    No, because neither address the fine print. This is the big sticking point. We ALL agree about the enforcement. But by explaining that early arrivals cannot be accommodated and not saying the same about late arrivals, they're implying late arrivals can be accommodated, which means return time is flexible, which means the return time on the front is not necessarily the real return time.

    Look, if I read the entire ticket, ask a cast member about it, and they say, "Oh, you can come back at anytime after the first time; ignore the second time," what else am I supposed to think?

    Really, we're not that far apart on this. I just happen to think the omission on the FP means something different than you do. I'm tired of going in circles.

  7. #157

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    No, you're wrong with this analogy, as the other poster when the same thing was posted earlier. Disney doesn't enforce this rule and hasn't enforced it in practice for 10 years. Going in front of a judge implies selective enforcement, which is not the case... there has been no enforcement whatsoever. For that reason you can say that for all intents and purposes, or de facto, the rule doesn't actually exist and has not existed for a decade.

    [Latin, In fact.] In fact, in deed, actually.
    This phrase is used to characterize an officer, a government, a past action, or a state of affairs that must be accepted for all practical purposes, but is illegal or illegitimate. Thus, an office, position, or status existing under a claim or color of right, such as a de facto corporation. In this sense it is the contrary of de jure, which means rightful, legitimate, just, or constitutional. Thus, an officer, king, or government de facto is one that is in actual possession of the office or supreme power, but by usurpation, or without lawful title.

    So based on the above definition of de facto from a legal dictionary, I would say that using a fastpass after the expiration is 'de facto usage', meaning is illegal (or to use a more accurate term 'against the rule') but tolerated. Not that allowing usage after expiration means that the rule no longer exists. The upcoming enforcement of fastpass return times will be 'de jure'; rightful and legitimate as it complies with the rule of fastpass return times as it exists in 'Disney's Rule Book'.

    Remember many states have laws in existence 'de facto'. Laws against swearing in front of ladies or not being able to ride an elephant down the street on a Sunday. Laws that are NOT enforced but remain laws just the same, and if some lady wanted to have a person arrested for dropping the 'F-bomb' in front of her, the police would probably have to do it. There was a recent case involving adultery where the wronged spouse successfully won a large settlement from her husband's mistress based on a 19th century law. One that 'de facto' was never enforced, but still on the books.
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  8. #158

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    All I'm saying is that the rule is, as of now, that you can enter any time after the window starts. For all practical purposes, that is the current 'law.'
    In writing the rule has never changed. Frontline CM's at their own discretion have informed Guests that it isn't always enforced. But at no time did the printed media, posted times, or language change.

    Likewise Disney has everything "written down". It is a byproduct of being a global company that has been the target of substantial lawsuits. This is why I contacted the legal department directly regarding the lack of a "late" entry in the additional information.

    Again I stress the media was continually handed out, day after day, over the stated 10 year period. In practice the rule was continually stated on each ticket that was printed out. It thereby existed even if it wasn't continually enforced.
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  9. #159

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    Disney doesn't enforce this rule and hasn't enforced it in practice for 10 years.
    That's not true. It hasn't gone completely unenforced during its entire existence. They do enforce it periodically. They were enforcing it at times when the Racers first opened as well as when te new Star Tours launched. I'm sure there have been others, but those are two from recent memory.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  10. #160

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Im not sure if it has been said by anyone else yet but a big difference between WDW and DL enforcing return times is park hopping. At WDW you usually stick with one park for the day or if you do park hop you just do so once in th day. At the DL resort people are more likely to jump back and forth between DL and DCA because they are walking distance from eachother.

    I find myself stating in DL then going to DCA then DL then back to DCA. It makes it a much greater area that you have to travel to make it back for a specific return time. Maybe it's just me hopping around so much.

  11. #161

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    But by explaining that early arrivals cannot be accommodated and not saying the same about late arrivals, they're implying late arrivals can be accommodated, which means return time is flexible, which means the return time on the front is not necessarily the real return time.

    Look, if I read the entire ticket, ask a cast member about it, and they say, "Oh, you can come back at anytime after the first time; ignore the second time," what else am I supposed to think?
    Get a dictionary and look up the definition of 'between'. The rule couldn't be more clear.

    You're supposed to think that they are not currently enforcing the rule, which they are not. The rule still exists.
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  12. #162

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    But by explaining that early arrivals cannot be accommodated and not saying the same about late arrivals, they're implying late arrivals can be accommodated, which means return time is flexible, which means the return time on the front is not necessarily the real return time.
    I'd say this is pretty good proof here but not enough. Speculation of disney's motivations and their implying of late accommodations dont completely make it true. If you really think about what is written on a FP it says return anytime between these times. But it doesn't say anything along the lines of "only between". The closest the pass does at clarifying this is by saying early arrivals cannot be accommodated. So what the FP says is do X, dont do Y. X being return window and Y being showing up early. It literally says nothing about Z(showing up late).

    So I sort of take it as they want you to show up at a certain time but they dont say you can't show up at another time save for stating that earlier times aren't accepted.
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  13. #163

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Disney sends a mixed message through it's CMs because CMs are over eager to let guests know they can ignore the written ticket. That is the part that is misleading and confusing for customers.
    CCMS - Cool Cast Member Syndrome
    It is a CM who wants to be the one to spout facts and get a positive reaction from a guest. While it is wonderful most of the time, I think this is their #1 ''fact''... and as mentioned before, is one of the reasons the FP issue has become an issue. They aren't truely representing what Disney intended with their own CCMS words.
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  14. #164

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by Disney Vault View Post
    At the DL resort people are more likely to jump back and forth between DL and DCA because they are walking distance from eachother.
    Park hopping shouldn't be an issue. The distance between the two is not that far. One can easily make it from CA Screamin' all the way to Critter Country within the hour window. If it is that important to use a fastpass, one finds a way to do so.
    Last edited by calsig31; 01-12-2013 at 09:01 AM.
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  15. #165

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    For years Disney had an 'unofficial' policy that Disney Hotel guests would be allowed to attend every Magic Morning by showing their key.

    It was not stated on the website as a benefit of staying onsite.

    If you called they would tell you that you got 1 Magic Morning if you purchased a park hopper and that you would have to ask at the hotel front desk about any other benefits.

    Were all those people rude, cheating, bending the rules by taking advantage of an unofficial perk?

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