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  1. #76

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by BC_DisneyGeek View Post
    Is there really any doubt that the instructions on the front to return between two certain times means they are not meant to be used beyond the second time?

    These aren't legal contracts, so I see no reason that Disney must update the language on the back. The rules are clear and they can start enfocing them should they so choose, without making any changes.
    Disagree. While most people would infer that they must arrive within the window on the front, the real policy is encoded in the fine print on the back. One is not allowed to enter the FP line before the time printed on the front. There is no comparable warning about arriving late. The result is that most guests will use their FPs during the printed window, whether or not they are aware that "late" entry is allowed with no questions asked.

    In my opinion, denying entrance to the FP line to those who arrive after the window printed on the front is a solution looking for a problem.
    Have bicycle, will ride. Finished 2012 with 10,089 miles, 683 hours, and 482,000 feet of elevation gain.
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  2. #77

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    The jaywalking analogy doesn't hold up, I'm afraid. The police will occasionally enforce jaywalking, but Disney (in CA, anyway) never enforces the return time. For jaywalking, there's a law against it that is only occasionally enforced. For fastpass returns, Disney's law is that you can return at any point after the window opens.
    Actually there have been reports on here of periodic enforcement of Disneyland’s fastpasses so that argument is moot. Regardless, though if there is a rule in the books, then that is the rule whether or not it is actually enforced.

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    I think the motivation for Disney enforcing fastpasses is important because it's an argument against the idea that there exists any type of abuse of the system. That abuse exists at all appears to be an idea unique to Micechat, because Disney certainly hasn't mentioned it.
    Just because Disney is not acknowledging the abuse does not mean that it isn’t occurring. I would actually be surprised if they did acknowledge it. The entire point of the fastpass is to save your spot in line while you go off and do other things. Do you think Disney is really going to acknowledge that their program allows a situation to occur where your place is saved in line, but when you come back to use your fastpass you have almost the same amount of wait as you would have if you just waited in line because people are abusing the system? Next Gen is Disney’s escape window for correcting the problem without having to acknowledge it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekkie Dad View Post
    One is not allowed to enter the FP line before the time printed on the front. There is no comparable warning about arriving late.
    There doesn’t need to be. The second time on the front acts as notice of an expiration time for the fastpass. What other purpose would it serve other than to tell people when it expires?
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  3. #78

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Just because Disney is not acknowledging the abuse does not mean that it isn’t occurring. I would actually be surprised if they did acknowledge it. The entire point of the fastpass is to save your spot in line while you go off and do other things. Do you think Disney is really going to acknowledge that their program allows a situation to occur where your place is saved in line, but when you come back to use your fastpass you have almost the same amount of wait as you would have if you just waited in line because people are abusing the system? Next Gen is Disney’s escape window for correcting the problem without having to acknowledge it.
    I admit that Disney wouldn't say "Gosh, we have a problem here" publicly. However, they would attempt to fix a problem if one existed. If showing up late for your Fastpass window negatively affected the park experience it stands to reason that they would have attempted to modify this behavior at any given point in the last decade... and they didn't.

    NextGen is a sweeping and comprehensive change to many of the fundamental aspects of Disney's parks and it's going to cost them millions upon millions of dollars. The idea that they're undertaking this multi-year project t because they're too embarrassed to start enforcing Fastpass windows is simply laughable on its face. I think it's much more likely that this active non-enforcement (ha ha!) is simply not causing problems.

  4. #79

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by KellyMcG86 View Post
    Ideally (note the ideally), FP should reduce average wait times. If that works, then the "magic" would be increased for families, as they would spend less time in line and have more time to ride more rides, see more shows, etc.

    Whether or not they do reduce wait times has yet to be proven or disproven, based on the numerous threads I've come across in the short time I've been a member on here. Just wanted to throw in the possibility the there could be an overall advantage in this.
    Ideally, FP cannot raise or lower average wait times of the whole park. Because while you "wait" for your FP return time, you're doing something else, and increasing the wait times of everyone else in the park, albeit minutely. Other FP holders are doing the same to you.

    The stat I'm referring to is: total number of attraction riders / total number of guests.

    Ways to lower wait times:
    1. Increase guests per hour throughput. Fill every seat whenever possible. To that end, Single rider lines do lower the average wait time, mainly for the user of said line. Single available seats are created when guest groups refuse to be separated. And I don't think that behavior can be changed. Also, more attractions (good ones, not stinkers) will spread the guests around as well.
    2. Decrease number of guests in the park. Well, this runs counter to operating a profitable theme park, so overall solutions to this, besides increasing the cost to enter. However, going to DL on a low-attendance day is a strategy that can be used by the guest.
    3. Speed up attractions. That will often lower quality, at Dumbo, this means a shorter ride. At POTC it means faster boats.
    4. Attract guests who don't want to go on any attractions. They just sit for a few hours before Fantasmic! starts or the fireworks starts. While this doesn't change the stat above, for guests who ride attractions, it's a better experience.

    Trying to think of some more.
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  5. #80

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post

    However, even if it was just a request, since Disneyland is your host don’t etiquette and good manners dictate that you honor the request of your host?
    voilà!!!


    BTW, since when have manners become a "holier-than-thou" mentality?
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  6. #81

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    ^ voilà +1!
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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    I admit that Disney wouldn't say "Gosh, we have a problem here" publicly. However, they would attempt to fix a problem if one existed. If showing up late for your Fastpass window negatively affected the park experience it stands to reason that they would have attempted to modify this behavior at any given point in the last decade... and they didn't.

    NextGen is a sweeping and comprehensive change to many of the fundamental aspects of Disney's parks and it's going to cost them millions upon millions of dollars. The idea that they're undertaking this multi-year project t because they're too embarrassed to start enforcing Fastpass windows is simply laughable on its face. I think it's much more likely that this active non-enforcement (ha ha!) is simply not causing problems.
    I find it laughable that you think several MCers think the reason for NG is to curb the abuses of FP. It is simply a side benefit solution, and allows them to not be the bad guy by saying "no" to those of us who abuse it.
    ~Jay

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  8. #83

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by JMazz View Post
    I find it laughable that you think several MCers think the reason for NG is to curb the abuses of FP. It is simply a side benefit solution, and allows them to not be the bad guy by saying "no" to those of us who abuse it.
    Exactly. Just like my example of Dr. Pemberton and his patent medicine.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  9. #84

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by JMazz View Post
    voilà!!!


    BTW, since when have manners become a "holier-than-thou" mentality?
    You heard it here first, folks, those families that show up a bit late for their FP window have terrible manners

  10. #85

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    You heard it here first, folks, those families that show up a bit late for their FP window have terrible manners
    It's one thing to unintentionally do it on a one time basis. It is quite another to blatantly show up five or six hours later on a regular basis.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  11. #86

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    It's one thing to unintentionally do it on a one time basis. It is quite another to blatantly show up five or six hours later on a regular basis.
    You can have your moral outrage, I'll be on Radiator Springs Racers after dark

  12. #87

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    In Disneyland Paris and, IIRC, the Tokyo parks, they are very strict about Fastpass return times. I remember reading about people who visited Paris and were surprised when the CM refused to let them ride because they'd come back late (expecting it would be like Disneyland or WDW, I guess).

    Point being, it's possible to enforce FP return windows without the sky falling in or everyone's trip being ruined. Disneyland Paris guests apparently get that if they're not back in time, they're not getting on the ride, and they plan accordingly.

    The WDW Fastpasses now very explicitly say that late returns will not be accommodated. It will be interesting to see if and when DLR Fastpasses also get this added.

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    However, even if it was just a request, since Disneyland is your host don’t etiquette and good manners dictate that you honor the request of your host?
    I totally understand what you're saying, and I support FP enforcement and all that... but my personal feeling is not just that I'm a guest at Disneyland, but I'm also a paying customer. There needs to be a balance between respect from the customer and respect for the customer. Not saying that this completely applies in this thread, as I don't know that I see this issue as a matter of respect, but just wanted to point out that we aren't just "guests" (to me).

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  14. #89

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by sediment View Post
    Ideally, FP cannot raise or lower average wait times of the whole park. Because while you "wait" for your FP return time, you're doing something else, and increasing the wait times of everyone else in the park, albeit minutely. Other FP holders are doing the same to you.

    The stat I'm referring to is: total number of attraction riders / total number of guests.

    Ways to lower wait times:
    1. Increase guests per hour throughput. Fill every seat whenever possible. To that end, Single rider lines do lower the average wait time, mainly for the user of said line. Single available seats are created when guest groups refuse to be separated. And I don't think that behavior can be changed. Also, more attractions (good ones, not stinkers) will spread the guests around as well.
    2. Decrease number of guests in the park. Well, this runs counter to operating a profitable theme park, so overall solutions to this, besides increasing the cost to enter. However, going to DL on a low-attendance day is a strategy that can be used by the guest.
    3. Speed up attractions. That will often lower quality, at Dumbo, this means a shorter ride. At POTC it means faster boats.
    4. Attract guests who don't want to go on any attractions. They just sit for a few hours before Fantasmic! starts or the fireworks starts. While this doesn't change the stat above, for guests who ride attractions, it's a better experience.

    Trying to think of some more.
    If every guest rode every ride, this would make sense. FP should theoretically more evenly distribute the crowds by designating the return window. Since this is not enforced, sometimes the FP lines get very backed up later in the day. This causes increased wait time for both FP and regular standby. Due to this, people who waited until later in the day may not be able to ride the ride due to the inflated wait time that might not have been there had people been forced to redeem their FP earlier, plus limiting the number of FP in that window, thereby limiting the number of FP cutting into the standby line and possibly making standby overall shorter.

    Obviously, this is all based on what might happen with strict enforcement. I really wish they would report if this has been the case in WDW so we could all stop speculating and base things on actual results!

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Here's my opinion. The leniency on the fastpass return times GREATLY helps us out when we're on the annual Disneyland trip with 10-12 family members in our group. It's very hard to get EVERYONE (including the young kids and old grandparents) to zigzag across the park to get from ride to ride within the hour we are given. Because we are allowed to come back anytime after our fastpass is given, it relieves a lot of the stress of running around the park by giving us more flexibility, making the time at the park more relaxing and enjoyable for everyone. Also, because we are giving up about $90+ per person, I think we should be entitled to just a little bit of leniency on our return times, especially because we don't chose what time is best for us. It's just too difficult to get everyone in the group to make it in the hour we are given, so I thank Disney for making our lives just a little bit easier, and I hope that this rumor turns out to be false.

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