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  1. #121

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Not if the focus of the complaints are on the delivery of the policy (CM attitude/wording etc) instead of on the policy itself. I will PM you more details on that.
    Wait, so now you're saying DL employees are ruder..? I agree with Flynnibus I don't think the audiences are different enough at each resort to warrant different reactions, not wanting to wait in lines and having FP's is a pretty universal desire among everyone. Unless there's something I'm not getting

  2. #122

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    The reality is that FP return is ambiguous. It's why these debates can go on forever. There are 2 parts to a rule: a) what it says, and b) what happens when you don't follow it.

    In this case, you have a return window of 1 hour printed on the front. However, the fine print only warns of not accommodating early arrivals, not late arrivals. Even those that hate late arrivals has to admit that there is an implication you should return during the 1-hour window, but no explicit language that says the FP is only valid for the hour listed on the front.

    The second part, enforcement, almost as a rule itself doesn't exist. So not only is there some ambiguity in how the "rules" are written, there is further ambiguity in that the return time--for late arrivals--is not enforced.

    So, for those who think arriving late is "abuse," how can you say that when Disney a) isn't specific, and b) doesn't enforce the "rule" you so adamantly believe exists? Disney, as a private company, can have policies and choose to enforce them or not. An unenforced, ambiguous rule is not much of a rule. Like "please ask for assistance". Does that mean don't touch? Does it mean ask before I touch? Does it mean if I touch it I get kicked out? Or does it just mean be mindful and careful and we'd prefer if you got ahold of an employee before doing anything? Well, depending upon what store and how the store enforces it depends upon what it means.

    In this case, Disney means "we'd like to see you come back during your window, but if ya don't, oh well. It happens." That's due to how it's all written and how they enforce it. Just like "please ask for assistance".

    Personally, with how it works now, I think it's best to return as close as you can to the window, including making decisions to be in the window if you can, but if stuff happens that's out of your control, go back later. However, if you use all your FPs hours later, well, that's allowed under Disney's own policy as it exists, so more power to ya.

    But when it changes, if it changes, that's the way it goes.

  3. #123

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    So not only is there some ambiguity in how the "rules" are written.
    There is nothing ambiguous about wording, in plain sight, on the front of the ticket that says return between this time and this time. If they didn’t want the return time to be followed, what is the point of putting it on there?

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    So, for those who think arriving late is "abuse," how can you say that
    Arriving a couple minutes late once or twice is not abuse. Making it a regular practice of coming back 4 or 5 hours later is abuse.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  4. #124

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    There is nothing ambiguous about wording, in plain sight, on the front of the ticket that says return between this time and this time. If they didn’t want the return time to be followed, what is the point of putting it on there?
    And then on the back it clearly states that early arrivals cannot be accommodated, yet is silent about late arrivals. You can't just take part of it out of context to try and prove your point. You have to take it all.

    If you take it all into account, it says 1) Return in this window, 2) Don't come early because we won't let you in, and 3) (You can arrive late, because we intentionally didnt address it and we aren't going to enforce it).

    To answer the bold, as I stated above, it's because they'd prefer you return then, and while they will turn you away early, they won't turn you away late.

  5. #125

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    In this case, you have a return window of 1 hour printed on the front. However, the fine print only warns of not accommodating early arrivals, not late arrivals. Even those that hate late arrivals has to admit that there is an implication you should return during the 1-hour window, but no explicit language that says the FP is only valid for the hour listed on the front.
    The word 'between' is not ambiguous. You're taking additional information, and inferring the ambiguity because there isn't additional information on all cases. That doesn't negate the word 'between' - which in itself defines the boundaries and expectations. As much as people want to harp about 'it doesn't say no late arrivals' - they can't deny the word 'between' there.

    The enforcement is lax because it's purely a customer service choice. Just like a grocery store may not actually force you to pay for that jar of jelly you dropped.. that doesn't mean you are allowed to break whatever you want without consequence.

    Disney sends a mixed message through it's CMs because CMs are over eager to let guests know they can ignore the written ticket. That is the part that is misleading and confusing for customers.

    The burden is on Disney.. but the ticket is clear.
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  6. #126

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    The burden is on Disney.. but the ticket is clear.
    Exactly. More to the point, Disney's "blind eye" as essentially cultivated and to a degree rewarded the very attitude that they are now trying to correct.
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  7. #127

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    The word 'between' is not ambiguous. You're taking additional information, and inferring the ambiguity because there isn't additional information on all cases. That doesn't negate the word 'between' - which in itself defines the boundaries and expectations. As much as people want to harp about 'it doesn't say no late arrivals' - they can't deny the word 'between' there.

    The enforcement is lax because it's purely a customer service choice. Just like a grocery store may not actually force you to pay for that jar of jelly you dropped.. that doesn't mean you are allowed to break whatever you want without consequence.

    Disney sends a mixed message through it's CMs because CMs are over eager to let guests know they can ignore the written ticket. That is the part that is misleading and confusing for customers.

    The burden is on Disney.. but the ticket is clear.
    Not "additional" information, all of the information. You're picking and choosing information on the ticket. Even if it is the main information, it's not all of it. You can't seriously believe Disney is oblivious to the fact that in the fine print they were explicit regarding early arrivals and silent regarding late arrivals. It makes little sense to do that and then enforce it that way--can't go on early, can go on way late is how it's enforced. That's not coincidental. It gives them leeway if people were to complain that people are using the ticket after the window. If someone were to do that, the fine print would back them up.

    It's likely missing in the fine print so Disney can allow late arrivals at their discretion. Instead, they allow them as a rule.

  8. #128

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    And then on the back it clearly states that early arrivals cannot be accommodated, yet is silent about late arrivals. You can't just take part of it out of context to try and prove your point. You have to take it all.

    If you take it all into account, it says 1) Return in this window, 2) Don't come early because we won't let you in, and 3) (You can arrive late, because we intentionally didnt address it and we aren't going to enforce it).

    To answer the bold, as I stated above, it's because they'd prefer you return then, and while they will turn you away early, they won't turn you away late.
    Most likely the language on the back regarding start time was put there because they didn’t want people milling about prior to their start time or trying to badger their workers because there is only two minutes until they can go in. The reason that language wasn’t regarding the end time is because it wasn’t needed. It is clear and unambiguous. Return between A and B. It doesn’t really leave much room for interpretation.

    As to the enforcement of the rule, that was a courtesy that Disney was providing. A courtesy that hopefully they won’t provide much longer.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  9. #129

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Most likely the language on the back regarding start time was put there because they didn’t want people milling about prior to their start time or trying to badger their workers because there is only two minutes until they can go in. The reason that language wasn’t regarding the end time is because it wasn’t needed. It is clear and unambiguous. Return between A and B. It doesn’t really leave much room for interpretation.

    As to the enforcement of the rule, that was a courtesy that Disney was providing. A courtesy that hopefully they won’t provide much longer.
    Actually the reason the return time wasn't mentioned in the "fine print" was to provide Disney employees the discretion to allow a late entry on a case by case basis. I actually asked that question while working at Disney and that was the response from the legal department (directly, not via management filtering it).

    In short they labeled no early entry to specifically forbid it but wanted "wiggle room" with the end time should any unforeseen circumstances play out. A great example is the attraction itself going 101 (breaking down). You show up on time, it's not running. Disney legally could accept that ticket at a later time when the attraction is running again.

    It leaves the power with DISNEY. This is not a loophole that excludes the Guest from the stated time gap.
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  10. #130

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Most likely the language on the back regarding start time was put there because they didn’t want people milling about prior to their start time or trying to badger their workers because there is only two minutes until they can go in. The reason that language wasn’t regarding the end time is because it wasn’t needed. It is clear and unambiguous. Return between A and B. It doesn’t really leave much room for interpretation.

    As to the enforcement of the rule, that was a courtesy that Disney was providing. A courtesy that hopefully they won’t provide much longer.
    No, because that happens anyway. People have 10 minutes and they stand around until time's up. The employees don't say, "Move on, people. You cannot stand here for the 5 minutes before your window. It's in the fine print. Please move along." It means what it says: you wont be allowed in the line early. You can't read into one simple statement, then tell me I can't do the same.

    If it said only "Return between ____ and ____," then that would be one thing. If it said, "Return between ____ and ____," and said "Early and/or late arrivals cannot be accommodated," that would be one thing. Instead, it says, "Return between ____ and ____," and "Early arrivals cannot be accommodated" or however it's exactly put.

    I'm not saying you're 100% wrong, only that the implication is there for them to allow late arrival, likely at their discretion. That's the ambiguity. Add that they also don't enforce the end time, and there you go. They could've made it black and white. They didn't.

  11. #131

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Whatever reasons Disney has for allowing late arrivals, the word "between" makes it 100% clear when a Fastpass is meant to be used.

    Disney is choosing to be flexible with their rules, so the rule is essentially non-existant for now, but the debate over the original intent of when a Fastpass is to be used is baffling to me.
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  12. #132

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    No, because that happens anyway. People have 10 minutes and they stand around until time's up. The employees don't say, "Move on, people. You cannot stand here for the 5 minutes before your window. It's in the fine print. Please move along." It means what it says: you wont be allowed in the line early. You can't read into one simple statement, then tell me I can't do the same.

    If it said only "Return between ____ and ____," then that would be one thing. If it said, "Return between ____ and ____," and said "Early and/or late arrivals cannot be accommodated," that would be one thing. Instead, it says, "Return between ____ and ____," and "Early arrivals cannot be accommodated" or however it's exactly put.

    I'm not saying you're 100% wrong, only that the implication is there for them to allow late arrival, likely at their discretion. That's the ambiguity. Add that they also don't enforce the end time, and there you go. They could've made it black and white. They didn't.
    Techskip had a great explaination of this just before your post.

    However, if you want further evidence, I will quote again from their website when it says "Go to the "FASTPASS Return" queue at your Return Time", not "Go to the "FASTPASS Return" queue at your Return Time or anytime thereafter".
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  13. #133

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    Not "additional" information, all of the information. You're picking and choosing information on the ticket
    The difference is the additional information about early arrivals DOES NOT CONFLICT with the remaining information. You are choosing to interpret 'well it doesnt say late..' - but that conflicts with the word 'between'. That's why the information about 'early return' is 'additional' information. It's clarifying info. It's actually redundant. You're trying to say because other redundant info is not listed, it's open to interpretation. No it's not - 'between' is there and that is all that is necessary to convey the constraints. The addition of the 'early' info does not necessitate the need to explicitly state about 'late' - its already covered. The ticket wording has never been a defining point about why there is leniency or what Disney allows for late returns. No one figured this out by going 'See.. disney didn't say no late!! so they must let me in!' and forced Disney's hand.

    As techskip, I, and others have said - late returns has always been reserved as a Guest Recovery strategy for Disney. Disney doesn't owe it to anyone - but they do it as a customer stratification issue. They do it universally without question because Disney won't train nor trust their CMs to make such decisions on their own.
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  14. #134

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    All Im saying is its not 100% anything,

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    Re: Fast Pass Return Times to be Enforced In Spring

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    All Im saying is its not 100% anything,
    ? "early" and "late" are beyond the window of time clearly defined as being when the ticket is "valid". Even if Disney didn't put "early" in the fine print it wouldn't make the ticket good prior to the printed window. Whether or not a CM accepts the ticket early or late is a different conversation. But both "early" and "late" are beyond the "valid" window.
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