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  1. #31

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Weaver View Post
    Remember the original version of this bridge?

    I so totally remember that bridge! We used to love to wait until the people in front of us got all the way across then run like crazy weaving from side to side.

    To tell the truth, I haven't been to TS Island in probably 15 years or more, since my sons got 'too old' for it. So, what does it look like now?
    "Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.​"

  2. #32

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    I so totally remember that bridge! We used to love to wait until the people in front of us got all the way across then run like crazy weaving from side to side.

    To tell the truth, I haven't been to TS Island in probably 15 years or more, since my sons got 'too old' for it. So, what does it look like now?
    Well, it has a net now instead of a simple rope.



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  3. #33

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.


  4. #34

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    Wink Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Weaver View Post

    Well, that's not as bad as I imagined. I'd figured they'd put in steel girders and immobilized it!
    "Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.​"

  5. #35

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    So now we're blaming the Disney Company for bad guest behavior?

    Right...
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
    -Dr. Strange

  6. #36

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    There's a quote from Penn Jillette that I'll paraphrase: Two things are almost always true. Things keep getting better, and people think they're getting worse.

    I do agree that there is a behavior issue in the country as a whole, but parenting is the culprit, not Disney policy. There are some entitlement issues in the country as well, but not just at Disneyland. It's everywhere.

    i wouldn't have a huge problem if they returned to the original ticketing format, but I believe most people would. It would allow people to choose how much their trip to the park would be. Some could come in and just watch some entertainment, some would choose to ride some rides.

    My dad was just talking about this the other day. He went to Disneyland in 1955 (and has the home video of it), and continued to go into his teens with his niece, who is about his age (my aunt is 20 years older than my father). He was saying it was very cheap to enter, something like a quarter, and they had dance parties going on. He'd go to pick up on girls, she'd go for the guys. However, he said the demographic would cause all kinds of ruckus there, and soon a huge price increase occurred and it was no longer feasible just to show up as a teen and dance/pick up on others.

    So Im not sure this is a new phenomenon. As a passholder for my 4th year, I really don't notice too much bad behavior. Perhaps Im just not there at the right times.

    The other side of this is that Disneyland is not the park it once was. There are some amazing new rides and a whole second park. Disneyland has gotten better. Behavior in public places will always be a problem, but I don't think ticket policy is the answer.

  7. #37

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    So now we're blaming the Disney Company for bad guest behavior?
    No, we're not. Guests of course are still responsible for their own behavior, good or bad. But policy can have an effect on how people behave.

    Did you even read the comments by Imagineer Eddie Sotto that I posted at the very beginning of this thread?

  8. #38

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retrocool View Post
    No, we're not. Guests of course are still responsible for their own behavior, good or bad. But policy can have an effect on how people behave.

    Did you even read the comments by Imagineer Eddie Sotto that I posted at the very beginning of this thread?
    I did, and still stick by my original statement.

    Bad behavior is all on the guest, its not the 'policy' that's making them act like fools, its they themselves acting like fools and using 'policy' as an excuse for their own actions.

    Though society in general these days is all about 'entitlement'
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
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  9. #39

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    I did, and still stick by my original statement.

    Bad behavior is all on the guest, its not the 'policy' that's making them act like fools, its they themselves acting like fools and using 'policy' as an excuse for their own actions.

    Though society in general these days is all about 'entitlement'
    I don't disagree with that. Entitlement mentality abounds left and right in today's society (I should know, I deal with it in my job every day). Keep in mind, Mr. Sotto's statement was that policy, COMBINED with the modern-day, self-centered, entitlement mentality, can encourage bad behavior.

    It's not about finger pointing and laying blame and saying "this is the cause." OF COURSE the ultimate responsibility lies with the guest. It's just that policy can make getting away with acting like an idiot easier or more difficult. It can either encourage, or discourage bad behavior. While Disney doesn't have control of individual or group guest behavior, of course, it does have control over policy.

    Did people act like morons in the Park back in Walt's time? You bet. But that behavior was not only discouraged in society in general, it was also discouraged in the Park, thanks to policy. Bad behavior was dealt with. It wasn't swept under the rug, ignored, tolerated.

    The ticketing policy is simply ONE aspect of the whole. It was one element of the Disneyland experience that made guests think a little bit more about what mattered to them. Once ticketing policy changed, though, people's behavior changed. While the entitlement mentality may have already existed prior to passports and APs, once those were the standard, the entitlement mentality reigned more freely. Expectations increased. Guests didn't feel quite so fortunate to be able to visit Disneyland, as they once did. This is not to say that everyone felt entitled, or that nobody was grateful to be at Disneyland, or respectful of the Park.

    All this is saying is that policy can have an effect on how people behave. If people are already inclined to behave well, then policy may not affect them as much. Those folks will most likely continue to behave well. If other people are more inclined to behave badly, however, policy can either encourage or discourage that bad behavior.

    It's like laws that govern various activities. If something is legal, you might be more inclined to do that thing, whereas if it's illegal, you might not. And then there are the folks who will do that thing, regardless of whether it's legal or illegal. But if it's illegal, those folks who do that thing can be - and often are - dealt with.

  10. #40

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    The only policy at fault is letting them into the park.

  11. #41

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Disneyland had to offer unlimited use passports because of the natural devaluation of the attraction roster. By the late 70s most of the attractions were already pushing 20 years old and they couldn't justify the high admission prices for them.
    That's why they had the ticket books......it packaged E tickets with lower valued A tickets. By eliminating the the ticket books you actually make it even more difficult (not less like you suggest) to get people on the non-headliner attractions (bye bye Motor Boats. bye bye Keel Boats. bye bye Skyway. bye bye PeopleMover.....all taken out -after- the elimination of ticket books)

    As for the late 70's (when we still had ticket books). Hello Brand New Space Mountain. Hello Brand New Matterhorn (interior). Hello Brand New Big Thunder. All within about 30 months of each other......as opposed to Disneyland's current 228 months without a new E-ticket
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  12. #42

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    That's why they had the ticket books......it packaged E tickets with lower valued A tickets. By eliminating the the ticket books you actually make it even more difficult (not less like you suggest) to get people on the non-headliner attractions (bye bye Motor Boats. bye bye Keel Boats. bye bye Skyway. bye bye PeopleMover.....all taken out -after- the elimination of ticket books)

    As for the late 70's (when we still had ticket books). Hello Brand New Space Mountain. Hello Brand New Matterhorn (interior). Hello Brand New Big Thunder. All within about 30 months of each other......as opposed to Disneyland's current 228 months without a new E-ticket
    Very, VERY good point, sleepyjeff!

    And again, I'm not saying that Passports or Park Hoppers or APs should necessarily be eliminated altogether. I just think that if ticket books were reintroduced as an option, it might prove more popular than many people expect it would. Sure, all-you-can-eat buffets are nice, but you don't eat every meal at Golden Corral. Sometimes you want a la carte dining.

    Heck, if they were electronic, you could really have some fun with them, too. They could even incorporate social media into them. Let's say you use an electronic E ticket on the Matterhorn Bobsleds, and then use an electronic C ticket on Alice in Wonderland. Each time your "ticket" gets "taken" (scanned) it sends an update to your Facebook or Twitter (info you've presupplied as part of the original ticket book (card)-buying process) - "Retrocool just used an E ticket at Disneyland and is currently careening around the icy slopes of the Matterhorn!" with a photo of the Matterhorn itself; "Retrocool just used a C ticket at Disneyland, and is following Alice down the rabbit hole, amazed by the wonders there!" with a photo or graphic of the Mad Hatter....and so on. If that's made an exclusive (and optional) feature of the ticket books, it can help generate enthusiastic word of mouth for visiting Disneyland and choosing the ticket book option.

    Also, let's say that the ticket books are refillable, and you buy, say, a 15-attraction ticket book at the Main Gate, for, let's say, $30. 15 tickets, A thru E, each ticket with an associated price, are loaded onto your ticket book card (and your ticket book card info is kept on file with Disneyland, so if you lose it or it's stolen, you can just show up, show photo ID, and get a replacement card easily, while the previous card is disabled and rendered useless). Let's say that, during the day, you use up all your E tickets, but you want to go on another E ticket attraction again, or you want to go on a different E ticket attraction. You can go to a ticket booth in each land (like the old days, but with both a CM inside and a self-serve refill machine option available), buy just that one ticket you want for its face value (let's say, $4 or $5 dollars), it loads onto your ticket book card, and you run off to go enjoy that attraction.

    Now, this doesn't negate the existence of Passports, Park Hoppers, or APs. Those can still co-exist peacefully. But if ticket books are offered again, as an option, it can be made fun, too.

    And isn't that what Disneyland's about? Having fun?

  13. #43

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retrocool View Post
    And isn't that what Disneyland's about? Having fun?
    Fun is subject, whats fun for you may not be fun for me.

    I'm not hot on the idea of bringing a ticket book back. Considering how much complaints there are around here about being 'nickled-n-dimed' regarding the resort, I'm sure the prices on new ticket books wouldn't be all that great either.

    Though I think by now the hard admission ticket has been around longer than the ticket books hasn't it?

    Though, I see this as mostly blaming a symptom instead of the real actual problem: People are Jerks.
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
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  14. #44

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retrocool View Post
    Very, VERY good point, sleepyjeff!

    And again, I'm not saying that Passports or Park Hoppers or APs should necessarily be eliminated altogether. I just think that if ticket books were reintroduced as an option, it might prove more popular than many people expect it would. Sure, all-you-can-eat buffets are nice, but you don't eat every meal at Golden Corral. Sometimes you want a la carte dining.

    Heck, if they were electronic, you could really have some fun with them, too. They could even incorporate social media into them. Let's say you use an electronic E ticket on the Matterhorn Bobsleds, and then use an electronic C ticket on Alice in Wonderland. Each time your "ticket" gets "taken" (scanned) it sends an update to your Facebook or Twitter (info you've presupplied as part of the original ticket book (card)-buying process) - "Retrocool just used an E ticket at Disneyland and is currently careening around the icy slopes of the Matterhorn!" with a photo of the Matterhorn itself; "Retrocool just used a C ticket at Disneyland, and is following Alice down the rabbit hole, amazed by the wonders there!" with a photo or graphic of the Mad Hatter....and so on. If that's made an exclusive (and optional) feature of the ticket books, it can help generate enthusiastic word of mouth for visiting Disneyland and choosing the ticket book option.

    Also, let's say that the ticket books are refillable, and you buy, say, a 15-attraction ticket book at the Main Gate, for, let's say, $30. 15 tickets, A thru E, each ticket with an associated price, are loaded onto your ticket book card (and your ticket book card info is kept on file with Disneyland, so if you lose it or it's stolen, you can just show up, show photo ID, and get a replacement card easily, while the previous card is disabled and rendered useless). Let's say that, during the day, you use up all your E tickets, but you want to go on another E ticket attraction again, or you want to go on a different E ticket attraction. You can go to a ticket booth in each land (like the old days, but with both a CM inside and a self-serve refill machine option available), buy just that one ticket you want for its face value (let's say, $4 or $5 dollars), it loads onto your ticket book card, and you run off to go enjoy that attraction.

    Now, this doesn't negate the existence of Passports, Park Hoppers, or APs. Those can still co-exist peacefully. But if ticket books are offered again, as an option, it can be made fun, too.

    And isn't that what Disneyland's about? Having fun?

    An interesting idea. I wouldn't want to do away with current tickets/APs, but a 'ticket book' card would mean a potential lower cost trip to DLR allowing people on a limited income to ride what they can afford to pay for (not sure if I worded that 'nicely'). So someone who can't afford even a one day/one park ticket could pre-load an amount of rides based their 'budget'. Now, how much that guest would spend in the parks beyond their ticket might be debatable. I have a feeling that such a guest probably wouldn't spend much in food & merch. It could also be an option for guests who for whatever reason (age, disability, fear) cannot or chooses not to ride many rides.

    It might make DLR more affordable for many people, but would also (IMHO) greatly increase crowds (since I doubt this guest would leave the parks when their ticket 'ran out') unless this option was limited to certain days/hours/periods of historically low crowds.

    Also, there would have to be a way to keep track of 'who has what'....meaning wrist bands or scanning tickets/APs at every ride.

    Since I'm not a Disney Parks business expert by any means, I have no idea if it would even be possible to implement this. I imagine the costs and logistics would be difficult if not prohibitive, to say the least.
    "Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.​"

  15. #45

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    There's a quote from Penn Jillette that I'll paraphrase: Two things are almost always true. Things keep getting better, and people think they're getting worse.

    I do agree that there is a behavior issue in the country as a whole, but parenting is the culprit, not Disney policy. There are some entitlement issues in the country as well, but not just at Disneyland. It's everywhere.
    I do love the quote from Penn - it's pretty much true. What's interesting is that you've pretty much confirmed Penn's assertion with your next statement! I don't think there is a behavior issue in the country as a whole; I remember my childhood back in the 70s and bad behavior was just as bad then as it is now. The only thing that has changed is that Disneyland is no longer considered an "upscale", occasional experience that you get dressed up for.

    Back in the 50's and early 60's, a trip to Disneyland would be comparable to what a trip to see the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra is today. It's a special event, one that you go to maybe once a year if you're fortunate. You pay a significant charge to get in ($120 per person), and you get dressed up. You anticipate it, you don't gripe out the overpriced ($4) coffee - you take your seat and you sit, quietly with your family. Your children have been coached ahead of time that you stay very quiet and only applaud after the piece is over. It's what is expected, and if you go to the Disney Concert Hall in Los Angeles you will get this very experience. I go several times a year and everyone is always on their best behavior, including the children. Yet these very same people will go to Disneyland and behave very differently, just as they would behave very differently if they were to go to the LA Auto Show or attend a Dodger game.

    The same experience happened with air travel - it used to be something you savored, and very slowly, through declining prices and familiarity, it has become something less special that we are not on our best behavior for.

    Society has not changed - we've always had places that we are on our best behavior for and places where we let our ugly side come out because we're too tired or it's too familiar and we just don't care anymore. Disneyland has just slowly allowed itself to become the latter kind of place.

    It might be possible to reverse that trend with different ticket pricing schemes but it will be a huge gamble for the company, and it might not necessarily make it an equally profitable operation.

    But I agree with the original poster's subject line - Policy can breed bad behavior.

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