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  1. #1

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    Policy can breed bad behavior.

    I happened to notice this discussion on another site, and since it involved veteran Imagineer Eddie Sotto, I thought it was particularly noteworthy, given that it touched on an issue that's been discussed here as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Sotto
    Quote Originally Posted by gmajew
    I agree that people feel they are entitled to things because of the high prices etc but that does not give them an excuse for bad behavior. Like all the spit balls you find throughout the rides. Or the littering... That is not because of the prices they pay it is because people no longer have any morals and do not know how to get their kids to behave.

    My trip at the end of March I was disgusted by the way people acted. It is a said display of the way we act as a group these days.

    Agree. The guest experience is also determined by how WE treat the other guests we're sharing it with. So True. Policies can spark the worst in people too and it does not take much. Littering also results from a messy environment to begin with. An old Disney saying is "trash breeds trash". If you see a clean area you tend to respect it, if it's not, you join the littering in progress. Today's crowds may be more challenging. Another policy example would be unfair or "open" parade or fireworks seating. No terrace or difficult viewing angles in roped areas invite guests to block out the greater number by standing. People get in physical fights over kids on shoulders blocking their view. Access to Alcohol does not help in some cases. So much is at stake when a vacation costs that much and your kid can't see, or the park is oversold and they are whining. Environment can bring out good or bad behavior if the bar is already set low in the guest's ethics. We live in a world today where more and more behavior is legislated, as the less conscience some people exercise to control themselves, the only fear they have for doing wrong is getting caught. Theme Parks rely a lot on good guest behavior as they cannot fiscally afford to be "police states" and should not be. Look at the LA Dodger's incident that resulted in the Stadium becoming a police state. (Isolated for sure), but the alcohol and tolerance of bad behavior breeds escalation and the notion that you can do anything. Many guests still are well behaved and mirror the happy spirit of the parks, but there are more and more situations, (like the Airlines experience) where the close quarters and rule driven experience breeds discontent. Designers and Operators play a role in designing experiences that are kind add fair. I always fought for the narrower queues (36 inches) as it naturally limits the incentive for people to try and cut in front of you. Don't forget, Pleasure Island opened with a Roller Skating Rink that allowed you to skate up to a full bar! Drunks on wheels! Insane.

    Today's culture is very different from that of Walt's day where people actually dressed up to come to the parks. That says something about the way we respect each other in public. I know that in nice restaurants the dress code has fallen pretty far and it lowers the specialness of "date nite" or a special occasion in high end dining experiences. Rivera has ways to accommodate both and we try and hold the bar as high as is practical. I don't want to pay big bucks for an anniversary dinner and look at a guy in a dirty T shirt at the next table. Times have changed and so you adjust. I recall a story that was told to me by one of the old guard supervisors operating Disneyland. In the early days of selling unlimited use passports, he found a teen in the bathroom spinning and unravelling the toilet paper and throwing it all over the wet floor. The place was a mess. He asked the youth why he was doing it and the answer was that "he was getting his money's worth." Hmmm. The CM went on to tell me that he did not like the idea of losing the ticket books because it gave the guest the subconscious idea that they owned the place. The attractions lose the sense of value of being a "transaction". No ticket takers to control the entry to the rides, meant they were just there for the taking. "Unlimited use" meant you could "learn them" and then vandalize or jump out of them. Combine that use policy with the society we live in today which has a "me first" mentality and you are where you are. I never forgot that story and analogy as I heard it in the early 80's!
    (Emphasis mine.)

    I'd go so far as to say that the combination of the all-access passports AND the Annual Pass program has resulted in a lot of the problems that Disneyland currently experiences, such as crowding. Ultimately, this all comes down to management, which really means Burbank.

    It really needs to change.

  2. #2

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Yet another thread dedicated to how terrible Disneyland has become due to current rein of corporate big wigs only driven by money and greed; I can't wait for the part when someone puts the blame on Eisner.

  3. #3

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Actually it couldn't be Eisner's fault, because the move from ticket books to passports was done a couple years before he became CEO. Unfortunately, that particular bad decision is one we have to lay at the feet of Ron Miller and his administration.

    Granted, like all things, hindsight is 20/20, and the passport idea seemed like a great one at the time, as I'm sure the Annual Pass program did as well. I'm sure no one expected the Park would become anywhere near as crowded as it's become, or that maintenance quality would suffer to the level that it has.

  4. #4

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    I just posted a thought in the thread about children well over 3 sneaking in as under 3 year olds.

    Back in the days of the ticket books sneaking a child in who was over 3 wasn't as big of a deal since they still had to pay $ for the A - E tickets.

    The switching of Disneyland to an all-you-can-ride park was a terrible idea that has begot so many negatives over the years.

    It'd be like switching Hatifields of Beverly Hills to an all-you-can-eat buffet.
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  5. #5

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Disney had no choice but to offer the unlimited use passports. Knots beat them to it first. I remember thinking when I was a kid how cool that you could do this at Knotts and not at Disneyland.

    There once was a day that Knotts really gave Disneyland a run for its money. As they say history is bound to repeat itself. If Disney doesn't pay attention to the competition they may once again find themselves left behind. And to be honest with my non- Micechat friends this might already start to be happening.

  6. #6

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Sotto
    ...Policies can spark the worst in people too and it does not take much.

    ...The CM went on to tell me that he did not like the idea of losing the ticket books because it gave the guest the subconscious idea that they owned the place. The attractions lose the sense of value of being a "transaction". No ticket takers to control the entry to the rides, meant they were just there for the taking. "Unlimited use" meant you could "learn them" and then vandalize or jump out of them. Combine that use policy with the society we live in today which has a "me first" mentality and you are where you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Retrocool View Post
    I'd go so far as to say that the combination of the all-access passports AND the Annual Pass program has resulted in a lot of the problems that Disneyland currently experiences, such as crowding. Ultimately, this all comes down to management, which really means Burbank.
    Bingo x 2.

    Into the "me first" mosh pit add a management that has slashed Disneyland's formerly world-class employee training program to a shadow of what it was pre-Eisner. Stir in a million AP tickets, garnish generously with a topping of triple-wide strollers, and bake for 16 hours.

    Bon appetit.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 01-12-2013 at 04:20 PM.
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  7. #7

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    Yet another thread dedicated to how terrible Disneyland has become due to current rein of corporate big wigs only driven by money and greed; I can't wait for the part when someone puts the blame on Eisner.
    Um, if you don't like the tenor of the thread, you don't need to perpetuate its existence by posting to it. There are plenty of other Pollyana-ish threads that may be more to your liking.

  8. #8

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Meh. A lot of it comes from the feeling that the worst that could happen is a stern look from a CM. Most of the bad behavior comes because Disney let's more and more guests go unpunished over incidents. As I was going to post over in the "urban explorer" thread, it takes getting national attention or a severe disruptment of operations for disney to go all out on enforcing their rules to the fullest extent. In any ordinary scenario, you could ignore cast member instructions, be rude to a cast member, walk across the middle of parade route, and get nothing but a glare and a slightly scolding remark from a CM. In some cases a manager might even apologize to you and comp something. Doing things all in the name of excellent guest service has given just as many of the "trouble making" guests the notion that they're entitled and that if they raise a fuss they'll even get something out of it.

  9. #9

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Disney cannot be blamed for the bad behavior of guests. Disney should not be in the business of bending and manipulating the midset of its guest.

    Now disney has already sort of solved the crowding problem with the opening of CL and DCA 2.0. The resort as it stands has very close to sufficient infrastructure to support those 1mil APs. Add some parking, the alleys, and the special AP events to manipulate their attendance and the resort will completely handle those APs.

    Eliminating APs, bringing back ticket books or any of those "solutions" are lazy and will only enrage guests who all are accustomed to the pay for entry and yearly pass model. The best solution is the one that disney is currently employing to solve the problems. Attack them one by one with win win solutions. AP attendance manipulating events and special hours help to alleviate the times when APs make the most impact. Improving the second gate so that it appeals enough to evenly distribute the crowds. Ramping up maintenance and refurbs to keep up with demand. Do you not see how vastly park operations have improved and how well they are adapting to current and future crowd patterns?

    FP has also seemed to have unintentionally solved the problem of unlimited use of attractions. The number at which a wait time has become unacceptable has appeared to have lowered since pre-FP times. What I mean is, today you rarely see a 2 hour wait for Indy or space like you'd see in the 90s because to most people, around 45-60 min becomes unbearable for a large amount of people. This regulates the wait times at an equilibrium which I find much shorter than it was Pre FP.

    As for guest attitude well not much can be done about that. Same for the "tripple-wide" menace and the "entitled" AP holder. That is just the world we live in and people will alway do those things. Add in the perception of loss of value with reimplementing ticket books and you may possibly see an increase in guest feelings of entitlement.
    In the quest for quality, I have no problem with the characters footing the bill.

  10. #10

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    I can't believe anyone
    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    puts the blame on Eisner.
    I mean I think it would be horrible if anyone
    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    puts the blame on Eisner.
    but there are people out there who seriously
    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    puts the blame on Eisner.
    so I'll just agree with anyone who
    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    puts the blame on Eisner.
    That way I'm not going against anyone who
    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    puts the blame on Eisner.
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  11. #11

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    Disney had no choice but to offer the unlimited use passports. Knots beat them to it first. I remember thinking when I was a kid how cool that you could do this at Knotts and not at Disneyland.
    I could be wrong but I believe Magic Mountain was the first to provide them. Magic Mountain provided a good deal of competition to Disneyland back in the 70s and pushed Disneyland's with Rollercoasters.

    There once was a day that Knotts really gave Disneyland a run for its money. As they say history is bound to repeat itself.
    Disneyland had to offer unlimited use passports because of the natural devaluation of the attraction roster. By the late 70s most of the attractions were already pushing 20 years old and they couldn't justify the high admission prices for them. Instead of removing all of these old classics and starting from scratch, they effectively lowered the price through the unlimited use passport and kept the old classics like the Jungle Cruise and the Tiki Room.

    The current system allows the one or two popular rides to essentially carry the cost of the whole park. Despite what the marketing says, you don't pay $80 for over sixty attractions, you really pay $80 dollars to go on Indiana Jones and Space Mountain.

    Disney could certainly go back to the old system of pay for play, but they would have to figure out a way to convince people to pay five dollars to see the Tiki Room. Or just replace it entirely.

  12. #12

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    I've noticed one point that everyone seems to have missed and that is some people just don't care anymore. When I was a kid (1970s) you didn't even think of throwing something off a ride or graffiti. Sure, some kids did it anyway but families got after you for it. For those of you who are as old as me, where did you see graffiti? You saw it in the 'bad' part of town. Now it's everywhere. Let's not hoist the blame on the APs or management, it's stupid people in large groups.

  13. #13

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    Disney had no choice but to offer the unlimited use passports. Knots beat them to it first. I remember thinking when I was a kid how cool that you could do this at Knotts and not at Disneyland.
    I think Magic Mountain did it even before Knott's. MM opened in 1971 with all-access passport ticketing. [EDIT: whoops, sorry, Mr. Liver, just now saw your post.]

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    There once was a day that Knotts really gave Disneyland a run for its money. As they say history is bound to repeat itself. If Disney doesn't pay attention to the competition they may once again find themselves left behind. And to be honest with my non- Micechat friends this might already start to be happening.
    To some degree, a little bit of competition is expected, but given that Disneyland was the first theme park ever created, I've always felt they should lead rather than follow.
    Last edited by Retrocool; 01-12-2013 at 09:36 PM.

  14. #14

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Disney could certainly go back to the old system of pay for play, but they would have to figure out a way to convince people to pay five dollars to see the Tiki Room. Or just replace it entirely.
    Personally, I'm all about options. I love having a wide variety of choices to choose from. Not every guest really WANTS a Passport, or a Park Hopper. I think the ticket books could be brought back as a low-cost option to the passports, priced somewhere between $30 and $40, and structured the way they always were, A to E, with E being the most valuable. They should also bring back General Admission, with access to no rides, for Guests who just want to shop or enjoy the live entertainment offerings. If ticket books should somehow prove more popular than the passports, that would be very telling. But at least if they were available as a choice, they could still generate revenue from anyone who didn't want or couldn't afford an AP, Park Hopper, or Passport. (In fact, they wouldn't even have to be literal ticket books; they could be virtual ticket books, electronically embedded on a card worn on a lanyard, and refillable on future visits if desired.)

  15. #15

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    Re: Policy can breed bad behavior.

    It was Angus Wynn Jr. who created the concept of the unlimited access admission and introduced the concept with the opening of Six Flags Over Texas in 1961. It really was a game changing concept, one that to this day Disney has not figured out how to properly address. NextGen with all the FastPass+ and interactive queues is Disney still trying to better handle the fundamental shifts in behavior which occurred following the change.

    While people like to point to the other parks in Southern California during the 1970s, the complete change did not occur until 1982 with the opening of EPCOT Center. Unlimited admission was available through a few means, but was not the norm. It was the scope of EPCOT Center, with its massive pavilions, an Disney's desire to have only one system across all of its theme parks that the ticket were dropped.
    Last edited by lazyboy97O; 01-14-2013 at 04:28 PM.

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