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  1. #106

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    Pretentious as anything. And was that guy seriously creeping on those teenage french girls...

    I don't agree with this in the slightest. You want to make a movie? Fine, but you should go through the proper channels to do so. Putting unsuspecting "extras" in a feature movie, that you intend to showcase in a major film festive, for monetary gain is wrong. Also, would anyone care about this movie if it were filmed at 6 Flags? doubt it. He can complain about Disney all he wants, without the "corporation" he would have nothing for a subject.
    Well realistically anytime you venture out into public or a "public space" (Which includes places where anyone can come in if they pay, like a train or movie theater.) You have no reasonable expectation of privacy. So I wouldn't call it wrong. Is showing people in an on ride video filmed at Disneyland that you put on youtube for monetary gain wrong? There are multiple channels that make on ride videos for monetary gain that include unsuspecting "extras" and those videos are seen by millions.
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  2. #107

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    ^yeah...I don't really get how places like Mice Chat, which have ads and main purpose is talking about and taking pics and videos of the parks...and doing in parks games...but this guy makes a movie and gets all the crap.

    I think neither are wrong but either way people don't want to accept many Disney fan sites make money and they make it from showing off rides, shows etc from Disney Parks

  3. #108

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Quote Originally Posted by JerrodDRagon View Post
    ^yeah...I don't really get how places like Mice Chat, which have ads and main purpose is talking about and taking pics and videos of the parks...and doing in parks games...but this guy makes a movie and gets all the crap.
    What Moore did has zero relationship with what MiceChat does. What MiceChat does is legal. What Moore did is illegal.
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  4. #109

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Quote Originally Posted by JerrodDRagon View Post
    ^yeah...I don't really get how places like Mice Chat, which have ads and main purpose is talking about and taking pics and videos of the parks...and doing in parks games...but this guy makes a movie and gets all the crap.

    I think neither are wrong but either way people don't want to accept many Disney fan sites make money and they make it from showing off rides, shows etc from Disney Parks
    Both this and the quote above it ask several times if several things are "wrong". Whether it's wrong or not is, of course, a matter of opinion and certainly arguable either way. The law on it is clear though, and not that complicated. Anyone that can use Google can easily find the answer as to why sites like Micechat, or a T.V. news program can do or show things without permission that a sitcom, entertainment movie, or a commercial cannot.

  5. #110

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Quote Originally Posted by bfdf55 View Post
    Originally Posted by bfdf55
    People visiting Disney parks are photographed by thousands of other guests, not just Disney. If there was no intent to make a profit, would the production values or cost of the effort be an issue?

    I mentioned that before. If the film hadn't been shown at Sundance, would there be an issue? I got the impression that Moore wasn't intent on making a profit from the film and that he could accept it just being shown for free. If that were the case, what would make it any different from any other video shown on YouTube for example?"


    None of those points answered my questions above.
    When it comes down to it, the types of commercial distribution channels that this film has available to it, not to mention its earnings potential (versus, say, the most viewed full attraction clips on YouTube) is what will draw the ire of a big corporation. Remember that the legal onus is on the corporation to enforce their IP. That means Disneyland has a few dogs in this fight.

    Brand Tarnishment - Having some creepy thirty-something dad stalking a couple of fourteen-year-old teens in the Parks is 100% counter to the image Disney works tirelessly to promote. Disney wants images of Daddy with his five-year-old daughter Jenny (in Belle dress, thank you) on his shoulders - not some underage teen with her legs around a pedophile's neck by the hotel pool.

    Brand Dilution - Disney has other concerns as a corporation with a *ton of IP under their control. We don't know exactly what you will see in the picture itself, but we do know that even the poster places multiple, well-known Disney assets right onto the key art.

    This is why you'll see companies start campaigns aimed at keeping people from calling a facial tissue a Kleenex, even when that company is Kimberly-Clark, who owns the Kleenex Brand. It is actually damaging to their ability to protect their Trademark if everyone simply asks for a kleenex when they want a tissue or makes a xerox instead of a copy or orders a coke when they really want a caramel-colored soft drink.

    Disney isn't some evil overlord bent on crushing a storyteller. They are a company that has worked for more than three-quarters of a century to build the best-recognized IP inventory on the planet. And they aren't going to let an independent filmmaker with a seamy story set in their backyard tarnish their brand.

    This is the truth of it from a guy who develops and protects IP for a living.
    Last edited by Erik Olson; 01-22-2013 at 08:08 PM. Reason: cleaning
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  6. #111

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    What Moore did has zero relationship with what MiceChat does. What MiceChat does is legal. What Moore did is illegal.
    I'm not arguing its not against the law, I'm saying I don't see him as a "bad" person like many do because I don't see what he's doing is any more wrong then someone making money off video's of the park

    It's like saying your a bad person if you speed..because your "breaking" the law does not make you bad as many people have posted against this person

  7. #112

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Olson View Post
    When it comes down to it, the types of commercial distribution channels that this film has available to it, not to mention its earnings potential (versus, say, the most viewed full attraction clips on YouTube) is what will draw the ire of a big corporation. Remember that the legal onus is on the corporation to enforce their IP. That means Disneyland has a few dogs in this fight.

    Brand Tarnishment - Having some creepy thirty-something dad stalking a couple of fourteen-year-old teens in the Parks is 100% counter to the image Disney works tirelessly to promote. Disney wants images of Daddy with his five-year-old daughter Jenny (in Belle dress, thank you) on his shoulders - not some underage teen with her legs around a pedophile's neck by the hotel pool.

    Brand Dilution - Disney has other concerns as a corporation with a *ton of IP under their control. We don't know exactly what you will see in the picture itself, but we do know that even the poster places multiple, well-known Disney assets right onto the key art.

    This is why you'll see companies start campaigns aimed at keeping people from calling a facial tissue a Kleenex, even when that company is Kimberly-Clark, who owns the Kleenex Brand. It is actually damaging to their ability to protect their Trademark if everyone simply asks for a kleenex when they want a tissue or makes a xerox instead of a copy or orders a coke when they really want a caramel-colored soft drink.

    Disney isn't some evil overlord bent on crushing a storyteller. They are a company that has worked for more than three-quarters of a century to build the best-recognized IP inventory on the planet. And they aren't going to let an independent filmmaker with a seamy story set in their backyard tarnish their brand.

    This is the truth of it from a guy who develops and protects IP for a living.
    Tarnishment - satire/parody is an exception.

    Dilution - Distinguishable from Kleenex, Xerox, and the like. No issue of genericide here.

  8. #113

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Quote Originally Posted by JerrodDRagon View Post
    I'm not arguing its not against the law, I'm saying I don't see him as a "bad" person like many do because I don't see what he's doing is any more wrong then someone making money off video's of the park
    That might be because, like many people, you see IP theft as an essentially victimless crime, especially if the victim is a big, wealthy corporation like Disney. Your view would likely change if you were the creator and owner of the IPs that Moore used without your permission for his own benefit -- IPs upon which you relied for your livelihood and that of your family -- and if you discovered he had used your children as extras in his movie without your knowledge or permission.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 01-22-2013 at 09:50 PM.
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  9. #114

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Parody / satire protections for fair use would come if he was making a [typically] comic statement about Disneyland, its people and / or situations generally known to exist in the park. For example, a MAD or SNL send-up of Simone, the Incredibly Effeminate Jungle Adventure Captain, would be satirical, if not in terribly bad taste. They wouldn't make friends with such an effort, but they certainly wouldn't be as likely to receive a C&D, either.

    You can't paint Disneyland as permissive to (or even the backdrop for) what borders on felony-level illegal activity in a narrative drama (that was completely stolen in the park under the false pretense of tourists with cameras) and escape prosecution and / or legal action.

    Dilution of the brand can also come from over-extension and misuse of one's brand. This clearly applies in this case. The Kleenex example is merely meant to illustrate the extreme pressure IP regulators work under to protect their assets from threats foreign and self-inflicted.

    Disney carefully calculates how they present themselves to specific markets and targets their message carefully within those segments. This film doesn't fit anywhere into that agenda.
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  10. #115

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Olson View Post
    Parody / satire protections for fair use would come if he was making a [typically] comic statement about Disneyland, its people and / or situations generally known to exist in the park. For example, a MAD or SNL send-up of Simone, the Incredibly Effeminate Jungle Adventure Captain, would be satirical, if not in terribly bad taste. They wouldn't make friends with such an effort, but they certainly wouldn't be as likely to receive a C&D, either.

    You can't paint Disneyland as permissive to (or even the backdrop for) what borders on felony-level illegal activity in a narrative drama (that was completely stolen in the park under the false pretense of tourists with cameras) and escape prosecution and / or legal action.

    Dilution of the brand can also come from over-extension and misuse of one's brand. This clearly applies in this case. The Kleenex example is merely meant to illustrate the extreme pressure IP regulators work under to protect their assets from threats foreign and self-inflicted.

    Disney carefully calculates how they present themselves to specific markets and targets their message carefully within those segments. This film doesn't fit anywhere into that agenda.
    Exactly right, both here and in your previous post. Well said!
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    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

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  11. #116

    • Tom Bricker
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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Based on the reviews I've read, I think there's a decent argument that this is satire. Disneyland isn't just a backdrop, it's part of the film's commentary.

    Of course, none of us have seen it, so we really can't be sure...

  12. #117

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    That might be because, like many people, you see IP theft as an essentially victimless crime, especially if the victim is a big, wealthy corporation like Disney. Your view would likely change if you were the creator and owner of the IPs that Moore used without your permission for his own benefit -- IPs upon which you relied for your livelihood and that of your family -- and if you discovered he had used your children as extras in his movie without your knowledge or permission.
    Yup. Keep in mind that there are two sets of victims here: Disney, which has the right to protect its IP, and all of the innocent people who were caught up in this film.

    Look at it this way:

    1. In terms of Disney: would you like to spend decades perfecting a brand and have someone use it without your permission?

    2. Would you like to feel that the people who visit your home are taken advantage of?

    In terms of the people used as extras:

    1. Would you like to work for free, doing a job that is typically paid (extras typically make at least $100/day, more if they are union Even filmmakers on a shoestring budget typically offer their extras lunch, a copy of the film and small payment if they can)?

    2. Would you personally like it if you, or your kids, were in a film without your permission? Not a YouTube video, a film playing on major screens. We've already discussed the difference between news, nonfiction (ie Fair Use) and usage for fictional/artistic purposes.

    3. Review answer #2 again if the film has content to which you object. Remember that this film is about a guy creeping on two teenage ( - and ostensibly underage, perhaps? Do they say? - ) girls. Is that something you'd like to see your kids in?

    Do I think this guy should be burned at the stake? No.

    Has he done something illegal? Yes he has, since California law states that you HAVE to get permission before using people's images in the sort of work he's created.

    Do I think he should be supported by the film industry in any way, shape or form? No. This guy's actions have potentially harmed people, he's not adhered to the code of ethics and professionalism that all filmmakers honor, and he's exploited people. I do hope that Disney shuts it down, and I hope that every single person who is spotted in that film sues this guy for damages.
    Last edited by Malina; 01-22-2013 at 10:47 PM.

  13. #118

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Yup. Keep in mind that there are two sets of victims here: Disney, which has the right to protect its IP, and all of the innocent people who were caught up in this film.

    Look at it this way:

    1. In terms of Disney: would you like to spend decades perfecting a brand and have someone use it without your permission?

    2. Would you like to feel that the people who visit your home are taken advantage of?

    In terms of the people used as extras:

    1. Would you like to work for free, doing a job that is typically paid (extras typically make at least $100/day, more if they are union Even filmmakers on a shoestring budget typically offer their extras lunch, a copy of the film and small payment if they can)?

    2. Would you personally like it if you, or your kids, were in a film without your permission? Not a YouTube video, a film playing on major screens. We've already discussed the difference between news, nonfiction (ie Fair Use) and usage for fictional/artistic purposes.

    3. Review answer #2 again if the film has content to which you object. Remember that this film is about a guy creeping on two teenage ( - and ostensibly underage, perhaps? Do they say? - ) girls. Is that something you'd like to see your kids in?

    Do I think this guy should be burned at the stake? No.

    Has he done something illegal? Yes he has, since California law states that you HAVE to get permission before using people's images in the sort of work he's created.

    Do I think he should be supported by the film industry in any way, shape or form? No. This guy's actions have potentially harmed people, he's not adhered to the code of ethics and professionalism that all filmmakers honor, and he's exploited people. I do hope that Disney shuts it down, and I hope that every single person who is spotted in that film sues this guy for damages.
    Realistically it's impossible to make this film go away. If Disney tries to take legal action against it, it will become possibly more popular than it would without their comment. Once a major corporation comes out against it more people will want to see it. It will receive more attention than Disney wants, so I think they are safe just being quiet on it. They can't make the film go away, all it takes is one person to put it on the internet. Then it is out there for ever.
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  14. #119

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Quote Originally Posted by Retrocool View Post
    Honestly, if I were in charge at Disney, I'd contact the guy, congratulate him on his ingenuity, make an offer to distribute the film for him (probably through Miramax), and see if he'd be interested in signing a first-look contract
    Quote Originally Posted by mratigan View Post
    I know I'll see it
    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    What? It has nothing to do with Walt liking or disliking money. Read the Steve Jobs analogy, it's about a (decidedly for-profit!) company where the strength lies in the leader's vision, and the fear that once that leader is gone the company will lose the je ne seis quoi that made it so special in the first place. Which, again, is something that gets posted here quite a bit.
    Ehh.. it's obvious you guys haven't read any of the plot summation of this flick.

    Just a little taste to ground this a bit..
    "The father imagines that his son and a creepy man in a wheelchair want to kill him. He also becomes obsessed with a pair of sexy teen-age French girls, and he trails them around the park inappropriately. A nurse warns him that he may contract the cat flu. In the end, his fears are warranted: he is captured and tortured by secret agents, his son turns on him, and he dies a gruesome death that involves coughing up huge hairballs"

    Escape from Tomorrow, Disney World, and the Law of Fair Use : The New Yorker

    and includes scenes like princesses trying to squash a child.. parks getting blown up.. etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Even in a documentary or a reality show - and I have personal experience with this one - you have to sign a release form for your likeness to be used if you are in the shot, and you have to be fully informed that filming is taking place
    But that's just it.. it's all about your LIKENESS. If you are just some indistinguishable blog in the crowd - your likeness is not being used. The releases and disclosures you cite repeatedly are more CYA motions. To prevent any disagreement about it, take the high road and require EVERYONE to know and agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfdf55 View Post
    I don't believe that's true. Unless someone is the subject of the documentary or reality show, if those uninvolved in the background are not extras or anyway else part of a production, they don't need to be informed. Of all the shots in the Great American Race, how many people in a background do you believe are notified of what is going on. News footage? Sporting events?
    The key is the person's likeness and if its being used - vs simply being part of the shot. Cali looks a bit more strict - but the common law is based on the idea of your identity/identifiable traits and that you have the right to control their usage. When you are unidentifiable and can't be associated with you.. then they are not using your likeness.
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  15. #120

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    Re: "Escape from Tomorrow" movie filmed in Disneyland secretly

    Interestingly, the first showing at Sundance did not sell out. After the first showing, this movie picked up major steam, and all remaining shows are wait list only. And good luck getting in on the wait list. After the first show, this movie has been the talk of the festival.

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