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  1. #46

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Which is different than Fantasyland and its promotion of Disney properties how?

    At least, they're waiting to make the property successful, and not gambling on a product yet to be released to hopefully be successful, something like a castle dedicated to a princess in a yet-to-be-released movie.
    Very few of the properties represented in Fantasyland were box office hits. The difference is that it was understood that box office performance had nothing to do with how well a story works in the different medium of themed entertainment. The Fantasyland rides were also not slaves to the narrative of their associated films. Where is the imagination in just doing what somebody else already created?

  2. #47

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    No, we don't put too much emphasis on theming, I don't think you ever can. Disney has set the bar pretty high with that stuff as well, as they should. When you are going on Tower of Terror part of the mystery is the queue and the feeling of being in an old hotel. Or even with Pirates (the WDW version) it has a wonderfully themed queue that sort of sets you up for the ride itself. It can't be matched.

    Then there is all the lands. Main Street USA gives you that turn of the century (1900) feel. Lots of nostalgia down there. Fantasyland makes you feel like you are right in the middle of a fairy tale. There is the quaint Sleeping Beauty Castle and all of the attractions that sort of form a mini town in a way. Toontown is the same way. You're in a cartoon. Frontierland gives you the feeling of the old west. New Orleans Square. Well, one of my favourite spots for sure. The closest I have been to New Orleans was Orlando and maybe I never get there in my lifetime, who knows? But for a moment at Disneyland you feel like you're there. Even with Pirates of the Caribbean they blend Louisiana in there rather well. I never understood for the life of me why the ride started overlooking the Blue Bayou - then I got it when I rode it.

    Even with Splash Mountain. I guess it might be fun waiting 40 minutes going up and down with nothing but a pole in your way like most rollercoasters in the world, but Splash Mountain makes the lineup interesting as well. Or even watching the Golden Horseshoe Jamboree. For a moment, life seems simpler. And if you are on the Liberty Belle Riverboat doesn't it feel like 1900 again for a second? Disney can do that and no one else comes close. And its the same at DCA, even with Carsland. That place is immersive. Or at Epcot it's the same thing. How can they do that at the World Showcase where you "feel" other countries despite them being next to each other.

    Disney is an escape from reality which is why we love it. I never think to myself "I am in a theme park" at Disney. I always think I am in another world.

  3. #48

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    Very few of the properties represented in Fantasyland were box office hits. The difference is that it was understood that box office performance had nothing to do with how well a story works in the different medium of themed entertainment. The Fantasyland rides were also not slaves to the narrative of their associated films. Where is the imagination in just doing what somebody else already created?
    Most of the Fantasyland rides are
    narratives of their films? People wanted to ride the films.

    Its not a new concept, in fact one pioneered by Disney.
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
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  4. #49

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Most of the Fantasyland rides are
    narratives of their films? People wanted to ride the films.

    Its not a new concept, in fact one pioneered by Disney.
    The Fantasyland rides were more about entering a world than following an existing narrative. There is a difference between utilizing existing worlds as a possible source than only using a narrative based on its financial performance in other mediums.

    If its not new then how can the concept be radical?

  5. #50

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    The Fantasyland rides were more about entering a world than following an existing narrative. There is a difference between utilizing existing worlds as a possible source than only using a narrative based on its financial performance in other mediums.

    If its not new then how can the concept be radical?
    Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, and Snow White all more or less follow the narratives of their respective films...many scenes from each scene are lifted directlyfrom their accompanying films, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

  6. #51

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
    Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, and Snow White all more or less follow the narratives of their respective films...many scenes from each scene are lifted directlyfrom their accompanying films, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
    Yes, the scenes are taken directly from the films, but the attractions themselves do not follow the film's narrative. If you rode Snow White without being familiar with the film beforehand, the story just wouldn't make sense.

    The purpose of the Fantasyland dark rides is to enter new worlds; whether it's the 7 Dwarf's diamond mine or the skies above London. The environment, not story, takes center stage in the dark rides.

  7. #52

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneylandfan95 View Post
    Yes, the scenes are taken directly from the films, but the attractions themselves do not follow the film's narrative. If you rode Snow White without being familiar with the film beforehand, the story just wouldn't make sense.

    The purpose of the Fantasyland dark rides is to enter new worlds; whether it's the 7 Dwarf's diamond mine or the skies above London. The environment, not story, takes center stage in the dark rides.
    Um...yes they do lol. In fact what you said is exactly right--you don't understand the rides without having seen the movies...the designers depended on guests having seen these movies to ride the rides. What exactly changes between the narrative of the Snow White film and ride, besides dropping scenes due to the obvious constraints that come with it being a theme park attraction? And even more importantly, how does this strategy differ from today?

  8. #53

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
    Um...yes they do lol. In fact what you said is exactly right--you don't understand the rides without having seen the movies...the designers depended on guests having seen these movies to ride the rides. What exactly changes between the narrative of the Snow White film and ride, besides dropping scenes due to the obvious constraints that come with it being a theme park attraction? And even more importantly, how does this strategy differ from today?
    What changes? Ummm... the entire plot. The dark ride leaves out key plot points like Snow White biting the apple, Snow White meeting the Prince, and the wake-up kiss because the environments take center stage.

    The focus of the Snow White attraction is to take guests into the environments of the film, whether its the Queen's castle, the Dwarf's diamond mine, or the haunted forest. Again, the plot of the film takes a back seat in favor of the film's environments. There's no debate there.

    Today, attractions tend to focus on direct storytelling. Take Winnie the Pooh, or Finding Nemo, or Tarzan's Treehouse, or even RSR. The story is what drives the attractions, not the environments. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but there are 2 definite types of attractions: story-driven and environment- driven.

  9. #54

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneylandfan95 View Post
    What changes? Ummm... the entire plot. The dark ride leaves out key plot points like Snow White biting the apple, Snow White meeting the Prince, and the wake-up kiss because the environments take center stage.

    The focus of the Snow White attraction is to take guests into the environments of the film, whether its the Queen's castle, the Dwarf's diamond mine, or the haunted forest. Again, the plot of the film takes a back seat in favor of the film's environments. There's no debate there.

    Today, attractions tend to focus on direct storytelling. Take Winnie the Pooh, or Finding Nemo, or Tarzan's Treehouse, or even RSR. The story is what drives the attractions, not the environments. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but there are 2 definite types of attractions: story-driven and environment- driven.
    Really? Taking out certain scenes is changing 'the entire plot'? The only ride that does that is Mr Toad--every other ride follows the same narrative flow as the movies. The scenes are in a particular order, follow a general progression of events, and follow the timeline of their movies. Not to mention, RSR and Winnie the Pooh also put emphasis on environments. You are right, however, about there being no debate here...
    Last edited by TylerDurden; 02-04-2013 at 10:20 PM.

  10. #55

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
    Really? Taking out certain scenes is changing 'the entire plot'?
    Yes, exactly. When the attraction leaves out key plot points like Snow White meeting the Prince, Snow White biting the apple, and the Prince waking up Snow White, it completely changes the story. The point is that the Fantasyland dark rides don't rely on story.

    The scenes are in a particular order, follow a general progression of events, and follow the timeline of their movies. Not to mention, RSR and Winnie the Pooh also put emphasis on environments.
    If that was true, why is the haunted forest scene in Snow White toward the end of the attraction? Or why the Mad Tea Party scene in Alice in Wonderland is at the end of the attraction? Or why you see the Indians in Peter Pan after the confrontation with Hook? Again, the Fantasyland dark rides don't follow their stories.

    Here's a quote from Tony Baxter regarding a Robin Hood attraction and the elements of successful dark rides:

    Whether its a good movie or not is beside the point. It's a movie that's characters, there's no atmosphere in it. I call it 'sticks and stones and rocks and leaves.' First you have the stone walls outside the castle, then the stone walls inside the castle, then the leaves in the forest, that's it. There are no exotic environments, you just have all these scenes with Robin meeting Friar Tuck, then Robin meeting Little John, then Robin meeting Maid Marian. That's when I figured it out: the rides are about exotic places not characters [or plot]. The best attractions are where you suddenly find yourself in a jewel mine or flying over London.
    You're right about there being no debate...because you're wrong.
    That's a little uncalled for, don't you think?

  11. #56

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    If what you're saying is true, then Peter Pan wouldn't start out in the nursery with Peter Pan flying, it would start out in the mermaid lagoon. Then the middle would be in London and the end could be Peter Pan arriving in Neverland--there's a narrative based on the film.

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    And without the Scotches, he also called it "a museum of living history."

    Go figure.
    That must be why Walt installed big robot dinosaurs along his railroad, after the taxidermy Grand Canyon? Because, you know, the railroads of the 1800's in this country often slipped back in time a few million years before pulling in to small town depots like Marceline?

  13. #58

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Micoofy Duck View Post
    Well thanks for putting the bold in "you". That was interesting.

    All I'm going to say is the OP asked for our opinions and that is my opinion. My personal opinion. It's obvious you are not enjoying my opinion and when I once again stated it you still don't find it flattering.

    But that's how I feel. My statement stands as is.
    I have no problem with your opinion but when somebody says fans "gripe and complain" (your words) are those not their opinions as well?
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Do you happen to know how to fly this thing?”

  14. #59

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    All three fail thematically for the exact same reasons.
    Buzz does not fit and seems even more out of place because it has nothing to do with Space really...is cheap...and even the game part of it is from 30 years ago

    Poppins and the new Fantasyland Fair both CAN fit and most like and accept them...I've never heard anyone say wow this restaurant really doesn't fit on Main Street and I'm sure the new sub area will have sooo much life to it even most (not all) Disney Fans will love the area even if they don't go there to get a picture with princesses

  15. #60

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    Re: Do you think we put too much emphasis on theme/setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerrodDRagon View Post
    I've never heard anyone say wow this restaurant really doesn't fit on Main Street
    But do they talk about how the Mary Poppins items add to Main Street, USA? Do they?
    Do they comment about how they feel as though they have entered the world of Mary Poppins? Does it provide that experience?
    The crime of the Jolly Holiday Bakery is that the decoration serves no purpose other than branding, not the theme or storytelling of Main Street, USA.

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