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  1. #106

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Crowds are crowds. It's horribly crowded at Disneyland over the Christmas season, and most APs (and ALL of the Southern California ones) are blocked out then. There are days when ALL APs are active and the park is a ghost town. This constant bashing of APs and the vilification of them for using the service they purchased gets really old.
    Quoted for truth.

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  2. #107

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Pinrar, the key to this entire conversation is access. If you take something away from the tourist, even if it is in words only, what recourse do they have? If they don't get on rides X, Y, and Z due to high crowds and no Fastpasses do they have the chance to do it tomorrow? When will they get another crack at going to Disneyland?

    Now apply the same questions to the majority of AP's. If they don't get to ride on X, Y, and Z due to high crowds and no Fastpasses, do they have the chance to do it tomorrow? Next week? Next month? When will they have another crack at going to Disneyland?

    What I have continually said is that if anyone deserves the perk. If anyone should be given extra hours. It should be the ticketed media that doesn't necessarily have the chance to do it all over the next day, the next week, the next month. I am not as compassionate about tourist AP's because they chose the AP based on price. They made the choice of AP over ticketed media. It doesn't make sense to complain about not getting a ticketed perk after the fact.

    The reason that late hours wouldn't work for tourists is that the tourist demographic is primarily morning based. That is why Magic Morning is so popular. But again Magic Morning isn't park wide. Imagine the reaction from tourists if they had an "extra" 2 hours in the morning, entire park theirs to explore. What more could they do with the lighter crowds? How many more Fastpasses could they get etc.

    Even if something is taken from the AP, the recourse is to go back... be it next day, next week, next month. In fact the entire purpose of the AP program is to allow you to go back, at a highly discounted rate.
    Well I'll still believe APs should not be punished just because they can come back another day. Make Magic morning longer and extend normal hours, give ticket holders one park for a few hours and APs the other. But either way, I don't think we should be trying to figure out who deserves what more. I think free for all is better than that.

    But better than all that is to try and appeal to everyone with diversified offerings. Extended hours, Early hours, separate hours, ticket holder parties, AP parties...I'd rather see everyone get their own little bit of special treatment than have a free for all or basing on who pays the most.

    I still maintain that everyone can have their cake and eat it too.
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  3. #108

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    The title of this thread, and the subsequent first post, lay out why if anyone should be given the extra hours it should be the tourist who doesn't necessarily have the option to "come back tomorrow".
    And as we've discussed, the whole idea behind the extra hours for AP'ers on Thursdays is so they DON'T come back tomorrow. Specifically Friday night. Question really is, is it working?
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  4. #109

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinrar View Post
    Well I'll still believe APs should not be punished just because they can come back another day. Make Magic morning longer and extend normal hours, give ticket holders one park for a few hours and APs the other. But either way, I don't think we should be trying to figure out who deserves what more. I think free for all is better than that.

    But better than all that is to try and appeal to everyone with diversified offerings. Extended hours, Early hours, separate hours, ticket holder parties, AP parties...I'd rather see everyone get their own little bit of special treatment than have a free for all or basing on who pays the most.

    I still maintain that everyone can have their cake and eat it too.
    This sort of side steps the entire access question I posed so I assume we're in agreement over who has a better option for recourse?

    My point wasn't about taking away from AP's. It was to highlight that if anyone "needs" or "deserves" extra hours it would be the tourists who have less access to the park to begin with. The problem with having a cake and eating it too is that you honestly can't please everyone. AP's and tourists are on opposite ends of the same spectrum. An increase in one demographic (AP's for example) generally leads to a decrease in the other (tourists don't go because of crowds or don't book the following year etc). Disney enjoys the AP income. Disney relies upon the tourist income. There is a substantial difference. Considering what they charge they have a much harder time retaining tourists then they do retaining AP's. A tourist can and will go elsewhere with their money. They aren't "locked in" for the whole year.

    Quote Originally Posted by sediment View Post
    And as we've discussed, the whole idea behind the extra hours for AP'ers on Thursdays is so they DON'T come back tomorrow. Specifically Friday night. Question really is, is it working?
    If the "goal" was to keep AP's away on Friday nights they could just as easily institute a rule that bars AP's from being scanned in for new entry after a certain time on certain days. It wouldn't prohibit re-entry with proof of handstamp but it would prevent a new admission.

    Instead AP's are given an extra 2 hours the night before in hopes that they will reciprocate and not show up the following evening as well. It's similar to the Fastpass pitch. We designed Fastpass so people could go shopping and eating because if they know they'll get on the ride they won't need to stand in a line. We all know how well that worked out. People just find another line to stand in! This would be referred to as having your cake and eating it too!
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  5. #110

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    If the "goal" was to keep AP's away on Friday nights they could just as easily institute a rule that bars AP's from being scanned in for new entry after a certain time on certain days. It wouldn't prohibit re-entry with proof of handstamp but it would prevent a new admission.

    Instead AP's are given an extra 2 hours the night before in hopes that they will reciprocate and not show up the following evening as well. It's similar to the Fastpass pitch. We designed Fastpass so people could go shopping and eating because if they know they'll get on the ride they won't need to stand in a line. We all know how well that worked out. People just find another line to stand in! This would be referred to as having your cake and eating it too!
    Exactly right. IMO Disney's AP program is out of control for the same reason as their Fastpass pitch: both are predicated on the myth of the perpetual-motion machine, the fallacy that a company and its customers all can have what they want when they want it, without any downside. It's the age-old lure of something for nothing -- the fantasy that everyone can have their cake and eat it too, without any cost to anyone else. From the standpoint of the psychology of modern management, marketing and consumerism, both programs are the perfect pitch for this day & age.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 02-15-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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  6. #111

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    There is always a cost involved. The question becomes who bears said cost. It's a balancing act. I suspect Disney is seeing the cost and the AP's portion of the expense is slowly being balanced. Disney needs more parking spaces, AP parking pass goes up. Disney needs less crowds, AP prices in general go up. It has been a LONG time since AP prices have risen so dramatically compared to standard ticket media. ALL of that said... Disney also put the monthly payment option in place for a majority of the AP holders, softening the sticker shock. I suspect the unintended side effect of the monthly option is that people can now get a higher level of pass and not "feel" it financially. Since the entire Blockout date calendar is based on sticker shock, the overall effect is more AP's and likely at higher levels of access.
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  7. #112

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    ...Since the entire Blockout date calendar is based on sticker shock, the overall effect is more AP's and likely at higher levels of access.
    Exactly. Which means a more crowded park, a tougher time for tourists, and an increase of the buzz in the tourism industry that DLR is mostly a "locals" attraction.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
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  8. #113

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Exactly. Which means a more crowded park, a tougher time for tourists, and an increase of the buzz in the tourism industry that DLR is mostly a "locals" attraction.
    In fairness I don't have exact numbers and my comments were based primarily on observation. Al has noted the change in demographics at the M&F parking structure. Instead of a lot that is full all day with an average of 4 people per car, Disney was seeing the lots empty and fill fairly quickly with an average of 2 individuals per car. They also saw a significant increase in afternoon and evening attendance which corresponded to people getting off work.

    Likewise the busier days when SoCal are blocked led to the assumption that at least some of that traffic is an increase in Deluxe and PAP AP's. The lack of attendance over the Summer would indicate most within the Deluxe haven't bitten the financial bullet to PAP. I do not know if you can upgrade an AP at any time, someone else may be able to answer that. If an upgrade is possible at any time and the monthly plan continues to be an option that may be the path around Blockouts entirely... at a minimum that is something to think about.

    Again this is entirely based on assumptions and observations without any hard numbers to back it up.
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  9. #114

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Exactly. Which means a more crowded park, a tougher time for tourists, and an increase of the buzz in the tourism industry that DLR is mostly a "locals" attraction.
    It's not just buzz of the tourism industry, it's an actual fact.

    Using myself as an example, I've been going to DL regularly since late 2005. My first regular trip since about 1985 or so was in September of 2005. Most rides were a walk-on; some had very reasonable waits.

    My next trip was January 2006, followed by May of 2006. Again, short lines and TONS of fun!

    I don't remember exactly when, but at some point the parks became crowded. Really crowded. To the point that it was way less fun.

    For the past several years, I go only once a year. I'd go more, but the crowds absolutely kill the magic for me. My sole reason for not going more often (and spending a pretty fair chunk of change while I'm there) is the crowds. No other reason.

    If the crowd levels continue to rise, or even if they stabilize, there's a good chance that DL will never see another one of my dollars again. And once I've had enough, it'll be next to impossible for DL to get me to return.

    Is this what DL wants? To alienate people who take up comparatively little space in the parks while spending money on things like full-price tickets, full-price meals and full-price merchandise.

    Doesn't sound like a very good business model to me.....

  10. #115

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    Micromind,
    It's not just the super crowds (though that's a huge part of it). The last time we were there we were in line for Turtle Talk with Crush and these "adults" literally pushed by my kids to get their favorite seat. My family just wanted to see this show once, but these people who had probably seen the show many times, just had to bully past us. These people have probably seen this show many times since too... And we'd go to shows like The Tiki Room and people would (in a bored manor) respond to the cues ahead of time; really killed the magic of it... and of course the Fantasmic campers... and it goes on....

    Oh, and I am not "AP bashing". I am simply sharing my experience as an out of state family that spent a lot of money to be there.

    I find the situation to be very sad, and I am surprised that Disneyland fans are OK with all this... but, I guess since you get to go everyday that makes it alright with you.

    And as far as bashing try starting a thread talking about these issues on the other top Disneyland forums - OMG!

  11. #116

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    Not here to bash and there is no way of knowing who is or isn't an AP. I've had both positive and negative experiences among tourists and among AP's. There are both positive and negative elements in each category. Again my intent in starting this thread was to point out the irony of AP's extra hours. Especially when you consider the AP population is part of the crowding problem and that tourists who lack easy access to the park would love said extra time. Disney is providing an extra perk and "hoping" it will benefit the tourist instead of directly offering said perk to the tourist. Like a politician on a campaign trail they want to appease both crowds. I watch in awe are they groom the AP population larger and larger. Then they sell the tourists on the idea that the park is too crowded to experience in a single day. They sell multi-day tickets, ensuring the tickets themselves can't be rented. Then they flood the park with AP's creating the very crowds they promised would otherwise be there.

    I have special memories of walking down Main Street, hand in hand with my sisters. I remember being able to walk in places like Adventureland, Tomorrowland, and New Orleans Square. I remember how "crowded" a summer day seemed back then. Those crowds pale in comparison to the crowds of today. If you don't believe crowding has become a problem, feel free to explain why World of Color needs a Fastpass system.

    My concern is that if Disney doesn't address the issue they will continue to see less and less tourists. People will go elsewhere to less crowded locations.
    Last edited by techskip; 02-15-2013 at 07:57 PM.
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  12. #117

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    Bashing is not my intention Techskip, and I apologize to your thread for being emotional about it all, but we are emotional about it....

  13. #118

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    My point remains. If someone is willing to spend a substantial sum of money to be here and visit Disneyland, seeing a sign saying "hours extended for AP's" next to the ticket booth is a slap in the face.

    I agree. If I were to pay for a family vacation, it's a big investment and to see a sign that says "extra hours, just not for you" would distress me.

    Someone brought up the hard-ticket parties. I'm not a fan of that, either. "I know you paid for the day, but now you got to pay again." Oh, and when you don't want to pay? You get kicked out of the park early.

    Doesn't make a person feel wanted. Ok, so the family from North Dakota isn't coming back again anyway, too expensive, but maybe their neighbor would have come, and due to the one family's bad experience, now won't.
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  14. #119

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    Quote Originally Posted by alphabassetgrrl View Post

    I agree. If I were to pay for a family vacation, it's a big investment and to see a sign that says "extra hours, just not for you" would distress me.

    Someone brought up the hard-ticket parties. I'm not a fan of that, either. "I know you paid for the day, but now you got to pay again." Oh, and when you don't want to pay? You get kicked out of the park early.

    Doesn't make a person feel wanted. Ok, so the family from North Dakota isn't coming back again anyway, too expensive, but maybe their neighbor would have come, and due to the one family's bad experience, now won't.
    I think the last paragraph here carries a lot of weight. Word-of-mouth is by far the most effective form of advertising, good or bad. I can't help but wonder how many people who have asked me how my trips went have decided against going because they do not want to fight the crowds I described.

    One persons bad experience can completely cancel the effects of millions of dollars worth of paid advertising.

    I seriously doubt that TDC has even the slightest clue how much revenue they're losing because of tourists who are disappointed in their experience with long lines and huge crowds.

  15. #120

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    Re: Anyone else think the extended hours should be for regular Guests and not for AP'

    In a way I see the crowds in the same way I see a movie theater. If I want to see the movie opening night I spend say $20 to do it. If I want to see the movie during that day I can hit up the Matinee for $10. If I go in the evening I pay $15. If I wait a few weeks I can see it for $2.

    Assuming you're talking a normal 8am weekend opening; I see the parks in a reverse sort of way. If you are a guest staying at the Disneyland Resort Hotels or part of a package you get Magic Mornings which is an hour before opening. If you are a regular ticket buying tourist (including military, group, or any other discount) you get in at 8am. If you're an AP you get in at 10am.

    This ensures the Hotel Guests "get what they pay for". This ensures the Guests not staying on property "get what they pay for". And it ensures that AP's, who have a discount and chose the cheapest option so they can come back multiple times, get what they pay for. It's simple, elegant, and will never happen due to the outcry from the AP Community. Notification wouldn't be a problem. I'm no longer an AP and I STILL get the "we want you back" mailings from Disneyland...
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