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  1. #16

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    People movers are at airports and new technological innovations are being pumped out at an exponentially faster rate than in the 1950's. Walt was a visionary, and a lot of the ideals of Tomorrowland will no doubt show up in the 1952/Tesla/Tomorrowland movie.

    BUT, I would argue that from an aesthetic point of view, stuff like Rolley Crump's Tomorrowland Terrace stage (sans the multicolored walls) still looks futuristic in that most of America can't afford to put stuff like this in, but perhaps in the future newer construction methods will allow for such urban design:

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    It looks like it belongs in 'Cloud City' in Star Wars.

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    Last time I looked, urban centers around the US don't look like Cloud City. I think that the big white and beautiful looking Tomorrowland is much preferable over Blade Runner as I want an inspirational/optimistic look on Tomorrow, though I think a "space port" area could be built entirely inside of a showbuilding and could house the queues for perhaps 2 E-Tickets and a restaurant. I don't anybody who if they visited a detailed recreation of a world in Star Wars would say that it didn't look futuristic.

    I also don't think that Space Mountain looks terribly dated, though they could update the queue with special effects.

    Given how high-tech today already is, you'd think it would be hard to do a Tomorrowland upgrade. Though as far as I know, nobody is hopping in a spaceship and visiting other planets. Just peruse Star Wars films, even the new Star Trek films, and there is tons of material for inspiration.

  2. #17

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by xboxtravis7992 View Post
    Instead of looking to the past Disneyland should actually look to the future for Tomorrowland. Every facade other than Space Mountain's should be removed and reworked to a represent modern futurism.
    What does modern futurism look like?

  3. #18

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    "There's a great big beautiful tomorrow, shining at the end of every day."

    This was the theme of Tomorrowland. Not the future, not science fiction, not modern technological marvels. Tomorrowland was about Walt's dream of a perfect utopian society with the world living in peace. The Mary Blair murals as a reflection of the theme of its a small world only reinforced this ideal. It wasn't there to show what the world will be like, but how the future should feel like - with everyone living as one.
    Adventures Through Inner Space was Science Fiction.
    Mission to the Moon was Science Fiction (at that point in time).
    Mission to Mars was Science Fiction.
    The old Subs was about a modern technological marvel, i.e. the nuclear sub.
    Monsanto's House of the Future previewed supposed future technological marvels, and hence had a science fiction bent.
    The People Mover was a technological marvel.
    The Astro-Jets incorporated a Science Fiction theme.
    Carousel of Progress was a historical review of technological marvels.
    Autopia was a preview of a technological marvel: the interstate system.
    America the Beautiful was a technological marvel: 360 screen views.

    Epcot would have utilized urban planning on a scale not yet envisioned in the U.S., and still hasn't been realized sans for some smaller projects in the world. Epcot wasn't supposed to be a theme park, it was supposed to be functional. Walt's Tomorrowland wasn't supposed to be Epcot, but rather to entertain guests using science fiction, technological marvels and storytelling and would get folks excited about the future.
    Last edited by chesirecat; 03-25-2013 at 07:10 AM.

  4. #19

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    ^ Nail on the head!
    Wiggins, you seem to have confused Walt's goals concerning Epcot (urban planning, building a society closer to a uptopian one), with Tomorrowland which is entertainment that relies upon science fiction, technological marvels and excitement about what the future might hold.

    The residents of Epcot wouldn't be excited/entertained by the future, but would enjoy the ease of living in a community that had been designed from the ground up.

  5. #20

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    If they kept with a science fiction theme that would be great..

  6. #21

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Walt was not interested in science fiction. He was more interested in urban planning and development. During Disneyland's early days he surrounded himself with urban planners and designers - I can't remember who they were except for William Perreira. In any case the whole hub and spoke design was from the influence of these people. These people went on to design and further develop urban areas based on this hub and spoke design. Newport Center (where Fashion Island is located) and the main campus at UC Irvine are prime examples of the hub and spoke design in a modern contemporary setting. I think William Perreira designed these. Similarly EPCOT in Walt's rough sketches was also an expansion of the hub and spoke design.

    This is what Walt envisioned for the future. Tomorrowland itself does not follow this pattern but imo it exists because Walt was a forward thinker, imagining the future of our communities to be a peaceful society where movement and progress exist together. Naturally the attractions of Tomorrowland would need to be futuristic but that was not the point of the land. If it were, Walt would have stopped there instead of dreaming up a place like EPCOT.

    If you look at Disneyland, Tomorrowland as science fiction doesn't make sense. Walt made movies about fairy tale princesses and Davy Crockett, and admired Tom Sawyer, and reminisced about Marceline. But he really didn't get into the science fiction genre. Why all of a sudden would be make up a land that showcases science fiction? It's not the stories or attractions themselves that are important, it's the overall message he was trying to send. That is the point of Tomorrowland. Once this is regained Tomorrowland will make sense - even if they don't do a thing with those rocks out front.

  7. #22

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    Thumbs up Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    People movers are at airports and new technological innovations are being pumped out at an exponentially faster rate than in the 1950's. Walt was a visionary, and a lot of the ideals of Tomorrowland will no doubt show up in the 1952/Tesla/Tomorrowland movie.

    BUT, I would argue that from an aesthetic point of view, stuff like Rolley Crump's Tomorrowland Terrace stage (sans the multicolored walls) still looks futuristic in that most of America can't afford to put stuff like this in, but perhaps in the future newer construction methods will allow for such urban design:

    Name:  DSC_3274.jpg
Views: 373
Size:  91.0 KB

    It looks like it belongs in 'Cloud City' in Star Wars.

    Name:  evacuationbd.jpg
Views: 373
Size:  65.7 KB


    Last time I looked, urban centers around the US don't look like Cloud City. I think that the big white and beautiful looking Tomorrowland is much preferable over Blade Runner as I want an inspirational/optimistic look on Tomorrow, though I think a "space port" area could be built entirely inside of a showbuilding and could house the queues for perhaps 2 E-Tickets and a restaurant. I don't anybody who if they visited a detailed recreation of a world in Star Wars would say that it didn't look futuristic.

    I also don't think that Space Mountain looks terribly dated, though they could update the queue with special effects.

    Given how high-tech today already is, you'd think it would be hard to do a Tomorrowland upgrade. Though as far as I know, nobody is hopping in a spaceship and visiting other planets. Just peruse Star Wars films, even the new Star Trek films, and there is tons of material for inspiration.
    That is one aspect I forgot to mention in the original post, somethings in Science Fiction/ Futurism still look pretty similar to the old Tomorrowland, yet once again they have detail the current Tomorrowland lacks. Cloud City has panels for droid access, remote carbon freeze chambers, and places where people go through their daily life. The bridge of the Enterprise in the new Star Trek carries a gleaming white interior, yet with enough touchscreens and buttons to give the impression of a working environment. An iPod follows similar design ethos. I also find inspiration in the look of the human cities in the Halo series, very gleaming white, yet with ads for companies, freight shipping docks, and modern curves accentuating the gleaming white.

    And in some places Tomorrowland still has this going for it, the north entrance to the land conveys the future better than the hub entrance. Example: the north entrance has Space Mountain as a weine, and the Observatron, Pizza Port, Innoventions and the Terrace frame it. The hub places the weine up front, so while it looks nice from afar once the Astro Orbiter and the spires are passed the vistor is greeted with the rotting Peoplemover and the bland flat facades on BLAB and Star Tours.

    I would say the most lazy facades in Tomorrowland are the flat mural walls of Star Tours/Blab (although I think they and the original Blair murals are cool pieces of art), the Monorail/Sub voyage dock, Autopia's bronze beast, and the 50's Tomorrowland Train station. If those got addressed in a refurbishment I think the whole land would improve, just as Hollywoodland in DCA feels better after having gone through Buena Vista Street, or Paradise Pier feels better after going through Cars Land and Pacific Warf (not saying it totally justifies the lazy Pier and Hollywoodland, just makes them feel a bit better). If Tomorrowland started of on the right foot, in speculation many of the rides and some of the facades could be left just as is.

    Also thanks to everybody who is replying to the topic! I appreciate the feedback.
    Last edited by xboxtravis7992; 03-25-2013 at 10:35 AM.

  8. #23

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    I think part of the problem with any 'new' Tomorrowland concept is that technology advances at such a rapid rate today that by the time a new TL is conceived, imagineered & readied for construction, any new Tomorrowland attractions will probably already be technological realities in use in today's everyday world! Technological advances used to move forward at a much slower rate from idea to reality. Today by the time someone dreams it, someone else is already doing it! Unless they go with some type of space colonization theme (as someone suggested in a thread some time ago) or time travel (a la tele-transportation) presented as 'the world of tomorrow' I think it will be hard to stay far enough ahead of technology. Unless they find a way to build a new TL every 2 years or so! LOL

    Star Wars Land or Marvel Land in the place of TL? NO! IMHO, neither belongs in the 'Disney Universe' that is Disneyland. Star Wars is not in the future, it was 'a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away'. Marvel has nothing to do with the future, either, it is also an imaginary universe. A third gate? Fine. But not in Disneyland!

    I really don't see a problem with some 'classic' Tomorrowland attractions, such as SM, Inner Space, People Mover (I know, I know, not happening), Home of the Future, & Autopia, mixed with some new attractions like a 'Visit a Space Colony' dark ride that could combine a simulated space journey (like the old Mission to Mars but with more modern ride technology) with an omnimover ride thru an imaginary community on a distant planet or space station. Or a ride showing an HG Wells-ian view 'from the past' of the future.

    I think if they re-did the exteriors of TL to meld better into a cohesive area, we could have the best of both TL's; yesterday's and tomorrow's. It can be just as fun to look back (to what people in the past thought the world would be like in 'the future') as it is to look forward (to what we may dream the distant future holds).
    "Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.​"

  9. #24

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    ^That is the problem. Either Tomorrowland can be made to chase after the future; become Science Fiction Land, or rely on a retro future. Yet I think after nearly 60 years of Tomorrowlands maybe Disney could look at the motifs which have worked in all iterations, such as Space Mountain which looks as futuristic today as it did in 1977. That is what makes things like Cloud City and the current Star Trek interesting, they are very similar in style to the old Tomorrowlands, yet add a dash of modern design which the 1960's Tomorrowland design lacked. Maybe that would be the best of both worlds, a modern design, with plenty of details, yet a sensibility showing it as an evolution of the classic Tomorrowland.
    Last edited by xboxtravis7992; 03-25-2013 at 10:44 AM.

  10. #25

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Does Walt's original idea still hold? Can it be the litmus test for attractions?

    "A vista into a world of wondrous ideas, signifying man's achievements...a step into the future, with predictions of constructive things to come.

    Tomorrow offers new frontiers in science, adventure and ideals: the Atomic Age...the challenges of outer space...and the hope for a peaceful and unified world."


    I refuse, though, to say that Captain EO should remain. Regardless of Walt's guidelines...
    Quote Originally Posted by All4dISNEY
    Words hurt.

  11. #26

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    Naturally the attractions of Tomorrowland would need to be futuristic but that was not the point of the land. If it were, Walt would have stopped there instead of dreaming up a place like EPCOT.

    If you look at Disneyland, Tomorrowland as science fiction doesn't make sense. Walt made movies about fairy tale princesses and Davy Crockett, and admired Tom Sawyer, and reminisced about Marceline. But he really didn't get into the science fiction genre. Why all of a sudden would be make up a land that showcases science fiction?
    Not true! Walt made 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, obviously Jules Verne is science fiction. Walt also did Mission to the Moon before it became a reality, hence in the world of science fiction.

    Science Fiction has always been a part of Tomorrowland when you look at classic rides like:

    Adventures Through Inner Space was Science Fiction.
    Mission to the Moon was Science Fiction (at that point in time).
    Mission to Mars was Science Fiction.
    The Astro-Jets incorporated a Science Fiction theme.


    Tomorrowland is a land in theme park, Epcot was supposed to be a place where people lived and it was inspired by a compliment that an urban designer paid Walt regarding the whole of Disneyland.

    IMHO . . . it makes completely no sense to say that Tomorrowland's attractions need to be "naturally futuristic" but that is not the point of the land. Tomorrow, i.e. the future, is in the name of the land and it seems to be centered around excitement over the future, i.e. science fiction. There was an unbeat utopian feel, but we also saw a Jules Verne style theme applied later on . . . but the constant has always been our perception of the future.
    Last edited by chesirecat; 03-25-2013 at 12:24 PM.

  12. #27

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    This is obviously an extremely complex issue. It involves so many different issues: Nostalgia, futurism, aesthetics, engineering, replacement, refurbishment, reconstruction, intention, original design and a possible "Star Wars land", which has been addressed in other threads on this site. These are just a few of the aspects related to this subject; all wrapped up in the varying opinions and desires of the individuals who have interest, as evidenced on this thread.
    With the exponential advancement in technology (Google "Moore's Law"), it's virtually impossible for any attraction in Tomorrowland not to become "dated", in a relatively short period of time, if it were to be based solely on the technology of tomorrow......it simply cannot keep up. To be frank, however, there are attractions that I would want to remain in place no matter what.
    Considering this, I absolutely agree with the post by 'DisneyIPresume'......that WAS Walt's ideal. (A vision shared by Gene Roddenberry, BTW)

  13. #28

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristocat View Post
    Does Walt's original idea still hold? Can it be the litmus test for attractions?

    "A vista into a world of wondrous ideas, signifying man's achievements...a step into the future, with predictions of constructive things to come.

    Tomorrow offers new frontiers in science, adventure and ideals: the Atomic Age...the challenges of outer space...and the hope for a peaceful and unified world."


    I refuse, though, to say that Captain EO should remain. Regardless of Walt's guidelines...
    The little utopian phrase comes after all of the talk about future new technologies and future adventures. To imagine future adventures you often go into the science fiction realm.

    There wasn't a single attraction in Tomorrowland that has ever talked about a "peaceful and unified world." I think that came from the World's Fair, which heavily influenced Tomorrowland (as well as Epcot), though the glittering rhetoric of the World's Fair is happily not seen in Tomorrowland as I think that would be too cheesy.

  14. #29

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    "...and here youth may savor the challenge and promise of the future."
    -excerpt from Walt Disney's opening day speech.
    Take from that what you will.



  15. #30

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    "There's a great big beautiful tomorrow, shining at the end of every day."

    This was the theme of Tomorrowland. Not the future, not science fiction, not modern technological marvels. Tomorrowland was about Walt's dream of a perfect utopian society with the world living in peace. The Mary Blair murals as a reflection of the theme of its a small world only reinforced this ideal. It wasn't there to show what the world will be like, but how the future should feel like - with everyone living as one.

    This is what Walt was concerned with at the very end of his life. And it didn't end there. EPCOT was his next step in the development of this goal. Sadly he died before he could see this, and so did Imagineering. I'd say they should restore the murals not due to nostalgia nor due to aesthetics. But simply to address the original intent of Tomorrowland. Without this overlying theme, Tomorrowland ceases to make any sense.

    Are you quite certain you are not confusing Walt Disney with Gene Roddenberry?

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