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  1. #31

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by KM63 View Post
    ......that WAS Walt's ideal. (A vision shared by Gene Roddenberry, BTW)
    I'm a star trek fan, trekker, trekkies, whatever . . . and I think that TNG (the next generation) had a very optimistic uptopian vibe to it, as really all Star Trek endeavors have had, and I think the "white" Tomorrowland had a similar optimistic vibe.

    But Tomorrowland isn't explicitly about nations of the world coming together in harmony. A lot of stuff was said by Walt on opening day, such as the "and the hard facts that have created America" , which was probably a nod to little boys in love with Davy Crockett, and whether or not it was written by Walt, a lot of generalities and praise are made when something is opened. I kinda think Walt dedicated Tomorrowland to the "the hope for a peaceful and unified world", but Tomorrowland changed from when it opened even in Walt's lifetime.
    It became less of a World's Fair, and more of something uniquely Disney, i.e. attractions based in large part of science fiction and excitement over new technologies.

    Walt said that Disneyland would be about the "hard facts" that created America . . . but he seems to have glazed over slavery and the first two World Wars, though I guess GMwML gets into the Civil War.

  2. #32

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by KM63 View Post
    "...and here youth may savor the challenge and promise of the future."
    -excerpt from Walt Disney's opening day speech.
    Take from that what you will.


    Mission to the Moon opened in a time when a lot of people thought we'd be living on the moon in a couple decades. There you go, the challenge and promise of the future, all told via an attraction based on science fiction.

    The promise of the future at the time all involved showcasing the interstate highway system which was being built, the promise of driving places quickly, while trying to keep from being bumped!

  3. #33

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    I think it's just ok to admit that Walt's vision for the land didn't work. Futurism is pretty much dead and Tomorrowland should be replaced with either a Star Wars land or some kind of Marvel/Iron Man thing.
    Totally agree. Just look at the dystopian vision of the future as presented in movies of the past thirty years (Mad Max, Terminator, Hunger Games, Fifth Element, etc.). The space race of the 50s and 60s represented an arguably unique optimism about the future. What have we now? Global warming, overpopulation...A detailed sci-fi version of fantasy land could be a great replacement for that vision. Star Wars perhaps, or an original otherly world design would do. If it's nostalgia people are after, Star Wars could provide that, while providing an immersive environment.

    Just no Avatar.

  4. #34

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    This is obviously an extremely complex issue. It involves so many different issues: Nostalgia, futurism, aesthetics, engineering, replacement, refurbishment, reconstruction, intention, original design and a possible "Star Wars land", which has been addressed in other threads on this site. These are just a few of the aspects related to this subject; all wrapped up in the varying opinions and desires of the individuals who have interest, as evidenced on this thread.
    With the exponential advancement in technology (Google "Moore's Law"), it's virtually impossible for any attraction in Tomorrowland not to become "dated", in a relatively short period of time, if it were to be based solely on the technology of tomorrow......it simply cannot keep up. To be frank, however, there are attractions that I would want to remain in place no matter what.
    Considering this, I absolutely agree with the post by 'DisneyIPresume'......that WAS Walt's ideal. (A vision shared by Gene Roddenberry, BTW)

  5. #35

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    I think it's safe to say that all huge advancements of today and in the future, come after huge investments, both human and monetary. Currently, much of Tomorrowland does not mirror this fact. That may be a place to start...
    Quote Originally Posted by All4dISNEY
    Words hurt.

  6. #36

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    I'm a star trek fan, trekker, trekkies, whatever . . . and I think that TNG (the next generation) had a very optimistic uptopian vibe to it, as really all Star Trek endeavors have had, and I think the "white" Tomorrowland had a similar optimistic vibe.

    But Tomorrowland isn't explicitly about nations of the world coming together in harmony. A lot of stuff was said by Walt on opening day, such as the "and the hard facts that have created America" , which was probably a nod to little boys in love with Davy Crockett, and whether or not it was written by Walt, a lot of generalities and praise are made when something is opened. I kinda think Walt dedicated Tomorrowland to the "the hope for a peaceful and unified world", but Tomorrowland changed from when it opened even in Walt's lifetime.
    It became less of a World's Fair, and more of something uniquely Disney, i.e. attractions based in large part of science fiction and excitement over new technologies.

    Walt said that Disneyland would be about the "hard facts" that created America . . . but he seems to have glazed over slavery and the first two World Wars, though I guess GMwML gets into the Civil War.
    ABSOLUTELY that was one of the biggest ideals of the Star Trek world; That all races and creeds could co-exist and function together equally....the fact that we are all "Earthlings", and to extend that premise, through exploration and the desire for knowledge, out into the galaxy. That was distinctly Gene's ideal. (And also be like a "Wagontrain To The Stars")
    Agreed, you can't ignore the aspect of advanced technology as an integral and prominent part of TL....as it should be. I think BALANCE would be an advisable goal in this matter...indeed, in all aspects of life. *This is something I try to keep in mind for myself, not that I always attain it*
    To me, when Walt said "...AND the hard facts that created America", he was speaking in an additional manner; referring mainly to Frontierland, rather than universally referring to every part of the park. He may not have specifically pointed out slavery but neither is that an exclusively omitted subject, to be fair. You could, in your own mind, include any or all of those subjects in his phrase "hard facts" if you chose to. Life is real enough...to me Disneyland and Disney in general is about escapism.....it's about the kids and the kid in all of us.
    Keep on TREKKIN'!

  7. #37

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by KM63 View Post
    This is obviously an extremely complex issue.
    I think the issue is simply that Disney didn't spend the $$$ to do the Rocket Rods correctly, i.e. banking the People Mover Track, and no dark ride scenes like Tony Baxter wanted. If this was properly done then we'd have two E-Tickets in Disneyland, instead of just Space Mountain (though maybe some consider Space Mountain an E-Ticket). Yes, Star Tours is cool, but I like the queue more than the ride which is just a simulator.

    While the old PeopleMover looked dated, riding above Tomorrowland and pretending you live in a future where there are more PeopleMovers than cars is still a great experience, even if just for the fun of sitting back and soaking in the scenery. The obvious solution would be to spend the money needed to fix the People Mover, turn it into a different ride, but allow guests to once again get a bird's eye view of the park.

    Technology has advanced, if the old track is stable then they could put in a ride 1/2 as fast as Rocket Rods . . . maybe do the track in 8 minutes instead of 3, but still faster than the 14 minutes it took the People Mover, gut Innoventions and add a whole slew of dark ride scenes, and theme it to Star Wars. People would line up to ride it again and again.

    Everything else is updating the facades . . .

  8. #38

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    So in thinking about what elements work in Tomorrowland and which do not I decided to look through my photos of the land:
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    As I mentioned earlier the North Entrance seems to be in my opinion more cohesive than the West Entrance, here the architecture balances both the original designs and a modern view of the future. Space Mountain serves to draw the visitor into the land. Trees and plants suggest a livable space.
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    However the main entrance suffers from the lack of detail, the murals feel like they are there to cover big flat walls, there are no details indicating people living in Tomorrowland like there is in the other parts of the park. And as mentioned quite often on this site, having the Astro Orbiter front and center does not draw people into the land but only to the entrance. Having the Orbiter up front would be like putting the castle at the start of Main Street instead of at the end.
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    Most depressing is the rotting Peoplemover/Rocket Rods track which reminds guests not of the future but of the parks past. Now that OSHA has made it clear we will never see the Peoplemover again, it is time to seriously consider removing this eyesore.
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    Another area which suffers from a lack of detail is the Pizza Port/Space Mountain Entrance/EO Entrance. Despite being very lofty and giving the impression of a large space, the detail gives the impression of being inside a local shopping mall. Even stranger, it bears a resemblance to the Disneyland Parking Garage design...
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    Even worse are some of the interior spaces which show a clash of theme, such as the Star Trader/Starcade complex; which cannot decide if it is a Star Wars store, a tribute to 50's alien invasions, or an arcade.
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    Fortunately Tomorrowland does have a few saving graces, Space Mountain and Star Tours are some of the most highly detailed rides in the park. Even better I see their designs as sort of the "ageless science fiction" by combining the classic white paints and architecture with modern high quality details. The details convey the sense the buildings can be used by the people living and working in them.
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    However because the exterior's do not match up with the detailed interiors there are some jarring transitions between the outside and the inside. This photo of the entrance to Space Mountain demonstrates this perfectly, the detailed interior makes the bland white stucco exterior look cheep in comparison.

    So the question now is, if Disney has shown they can capture the future with the interiors of Star Tours and Space Mountain, why not apply it to the entire land as well? After DCA 2.0 it would seem Disney would recognize the magic of some high quality detail being applied.

  9. #39

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by KM63 View Post
    ABSOLUTELY that was one of the biggest ideals of the Star Trek world; That all races and creeds could co-exist and function together equally....the fact that we are all "Earthlings", and to extend that premise, through exploration and the desire for knowledge, out into the galaxy. That was distinctly Gene's ideal. (And also be like a "Wagontrain To The Stars")
    Agreed, you can't ignore the aspect of advanced technology as an integral and prominent part of TL....as it should be. I think BALANCE would be an advisable goal in this matter...indeed, in all aspects of life. *This is something I try to keep in mind for myself, not that I always attain it*
    Gene's wagontrain to the stars was just a way to sell the concept of Star Trek to the executives back when westerns were uber-popular.

    Technologically Tomorrowland isn't much more advanced than Fantasyland/Frontierland, without looking at Star Tours, and less advanced than Carsland even with Star Tours, so I guess you mean the window dressing? Less droids and more aliens? I kinda get what you're saying, as obviously not everything in the future is high-tech buildings and vehicles.

  10. #40

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by xboxtravis7992 View Post

    Trees and plants suggest a livable space.

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    However the main entrance suffers from the lack of detail, the murals feel like they are there to cover big flat walls, there are no details indicating people living in Tomorrowland like there is in the other parts of the park. And as mentioned quite often on this site, having the Astro Orbiter front and center does not draw people into the land but only to the entrance.
    Plants are part of the show at Disneyland, and the theme in Tomorrowland is a future where every inch of space is used for food producing plants. Has been that way a long time, though if they go completely Star Wars they might change some of the Flora.

    I actually like the Star Tours mural a little bit, it imparts some energy to the area, though I think you made a good point about there being no evidence of Tom Morrow or other Tomorrowland citizens at the entrance.

    As is, Tomorrowland isn't supposed to be a place like the other lands in Disneyland, but more or less you've got a hodge-podge of queues advertising various attractions with a vague sci-fi theme. I think if they went gung-ho Star Wars then they could do some real placemaking. A World's Fair isn't a place, but more of an exhibit. Whatever folks think of the mural, it doesn't make you think your in Couruscant, unless they turned it into a high-tech billboard advertising for Star Tours.

  11. #41

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    ^Yea I forgot to mention the 'agrifuture' plants. They are one of my favorite elements, besides I have always loved entertaining the idea of sneaking a bite from one of them And I enjoy the murals to, yet I kind of feel they are like the California Letters and the California Zephyr which used to be at DCA; great elements, but detrimental to the setting. If a refurbishment happened at Tomorrowland I would hope the murals could be saved and eventually put on display elsewhere (maybe a large art musuem?), especially if the rumors the Blair Murals are still intact underneath them prove to be true, then Disney fans would have 4 murals to visit!

  12. #42

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    I believe that the concepts which speak "future" will be finding life outside Earth, first contact with an alien civilization, discovering parallel/alternate universes and time travel.

  13. #43

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    I'm a star trek fan, trekker, trekkies, whatever . . . and I think that TNG (the next generation) had a very optimistic uptopian vibe to it, as really all Star Trek endeavors have had, and I think the "white" Tomorrowland had a similar optimistic vibe.

    But Tomorrowland isn't explicitly about nations of the world coming together in harmony
    . A lot of stuff was said by Walt on opening day, such as the "and the hard facts that have created America" , which was probably a nod to little boys in love with Davy Crockett, and whether or not it was written by Walt, a lot of generalities and praise are made when something is opened. I kinda think Walt dedicated Tomorrowland to the "the hope for a peaceful and unified world", but Tomorrowland changed from when it opened even in Walt's lifetime.
    It became less of a World's Fair, and more of something uniquely Disney, i.e. attractions based in large part of science fiction and excitement over new technologies.

    Walt said that Disneyland would be about the "hard facts" that created America . . . but he seems to have glazed over slavery and the first two World Wars, though I guess GMwML gets into the Civil War.
    Then why did they put the Mary Blair murals in Tomorrowland? They would have easily fit in the Small Worls Mall area - and perhaps would have made more sense thematically there. So there must be something in those murals that would have made sense to have it in Tomorowland.

  14. #44

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by xboxtravis7992 View Post
    Yet every time I look at photos of 1966-1997 Tomorrowland I see the future as envisioned in 1966. 47 years have passed since then. The 1966 Tomorrowland in my view is dated, and any future refurbishment of Tomorrowland should not be a carbon copy of the 1966 version.
    Something different would be nice. But what? If you google the words “Futuristic City” and look up images …. Lots of artwork show monster size buildings, at dusk or nightfall. And the color palette is rather dark and gloomy. If you use that as a prime example .. then Tomorrowland is doomed. Not just from the depressing dark monochromatic look, but from a scale that will dwarf the Matterhorn. Naturally … whatever they do, it’s going to be all about a POSITIVE environment that fits “Walt’s little happy kingdom”. Not to mention that fits to scale within this rather compact 80 acre theme park. It’s not like EPCOT, where you have this large “canvas” to work with.

    Now, all this being said – I like Zaha Hadid’s work. Not all of it. But she has some designs and shapes … that could work into a futuristic land. That is breathtaking, “bright”, and “positive” .. like the 1967 look was.

    But of course none of this is up to us. Disney is going to do what they want to do. And the complaint we’ve all been hearing for years, is Disney might opt for a science-fantasy design – As it’s obvious …. they don’t like to renovate the land on a regular basis … and just might go for a full-on “Fantasy” design … and just leave it for the next 50 years. Or longer! And my fear they might go for a “Star Wars” theme – Which I won’t be happy with at all. Same goes for a “Tron” land, which was once rumored. I don’t want to see ONE franchise “look”. I want Disney to stick to a design that matches Walt’s dedication plaque to the land! If they want to mess around with other Tomorrowlands with “Star Wars” or “Marvel” or “Avatar” go for it. But for Walt’s Original in Anaheim – They absolutely need to hold to a higher standard.

    This though begs the question, what exactly is wrong with the current Tommorowland? How could a land with a popular E-ticket coaster and an excellent D-Ticket simulator be hated by so many fans?
    That's not hard to understand. Or as they say .. This isn't "Rocket Science" ... or is that Rocket Rods science.

    Took a good look at what they debuted in May 1998, that’s still, largely, hanging on to this day.

    They took an attraction that replaced the Peoplemover …. and became history in just 2 years. Rocket Rods. 13 years have passed, and what do we have? - An abandoned track.

    They didn't really renovate the land properly. They just took the old 1967 Tomorrowland that was already there ... and just did the least amount of facade work as they could .... and called it a New Tomorrowland.

    They placed water fountains, with a granite ball in the center, and called it an Attraction – Cosmic Waves. And what it did, was ‘attract’ water onto surrounding seats from one ride to the next. Gone by 2003. Though the granite ball, and new planters installed in 2009 .. Now make it one confusing piece of Tomorrowland.

    There’s more to the botched TL:98 make-over in case you’re interested.

    So, now what we have is the 1967 Tomorrowland today … coated with remnants of the 1998 makeover … coated with silver and blue paint applied to a slight renovation in 2005. We have the Moonliner rocket from the ’98 renovation – which is really from the 1955-1966 Tomorrowland. A return engagement of the 1980s Captain EO. Architecture from the 1967 and 1977 buildings, add Buzz Lightyear's bland flat look, that came out of a retail space from your local mall, and Star Tours new 2011 marque – And there you have it – Frankenstien land. With various “patches” that don’t match each other.

    Add the lackluster exhibit named Innoventions, kineticless surroundings. Moody and dark atmosphere at night. Some other attractions that should have permanently retired by now (Captain EO), and the Starcade space, with it’s abandoned second floor space – since 1999.

    Now, do you understand why it’s hated? LOL

    We can argue forever how passé the 1967 Tomorrowland is (was) – But it will continue to be coveted as the best Tomorrowland Disneyland has ever had, because it was one “uniform” cohesive design from one building to the next, one attraction to the next … all tied together by the Peoplemover. A ‘multi-layered’ kinetic land, that was bright and colorful, with it’s colorful Peoplemover trains, among other dashes of color throughout.

    The future does not have to copy that – but it certainly should take cues from it!

    Instead of looking to the past Disneyland should actually look to the future for Tomorrowland. Every facade other than Space Mountain's should be removed and reworked to a represent modern futurism. The Peoplemover track should be removed, and only replaced if a visually pleasing and OSHA complaint ride can be installed.
    Well, that’s the message I’m trying to convey in my signature below. Something different, yet, still mimic the 1967 design in a way … where it’s a slow moving attraction that offers the entire family to ride together.

    And it’s more than just facades. If we want a New Tomorrowland that is different than the 1967 TL, along with the ’77 Space Mountain complex add-on …. What really needs to happen the next time around, there needs to be some serious demolition. They have been applying “new skins” to these old bodies long enough.
    MY SIGNATURE:
    Dear Peoplemover Fans, If you want to see a new attraction that at least mimics the 1967 Peoplemover in a future Tomorrowland remodel, you need to write to the powers-that-be, and let them know. If you don't - Then the next time Tomorrowland is remodeled, you will see a land barren of any "Peoplemover" type attraction.

  15. #45

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    You couldn't have said it any better. Tomorrowland is a land that depicts the optimism of the future. The desire of going back to what it used to be isn't the direction that this land should be going to. I understand nostalgia is important, but in my opinion it's more important to improve and look forward instead of going to the past. If disney does rebuild another Tomorrowland I would want them to undergo a huge process of planning in blue sky. I want there imagination to go to a height we have never experienced in disney history. To do this right I believe they need to look towards the most innovative technologies to represent the look of what the future could hold.

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