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  1. #61

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Innovations-like attractions was not Disney's intent for the land... He just ran out of money. People are upset with Tomorrowland because they replaced old attractions with stores, dinning, and showrooms. The first poster talked eagerly aboud demolishing the peoplemover(which they should if they're not doing anything with it) and saving innovations. While Disney ran out of money and imagination when building Tomorrowland originally, that doesn't mean it still has to be half-assed 60 years later. They now have the Lucas/marvel/tron/wall-e/avatar titles to make a fun land, not a low budget sponsored science museum.

  2. #62

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Does the Tomorrowland theme mean anything anymore? In 1967 Tomorrowland was a look to the future of transportation. The land was all about motion. Everything was on the move. The attractions consisted of Mission to the Moon, then became Mars. Rocket Jets, Submarine Voyage, Adventures thru Inner Space, America the Beautiful in Circlerama, Carousel of Progress. Later, Space Mountain was built. Later the Carousel of Progress became America Sings, Adv thru Inner Space became Star Tours. America the Beautiful became the queue for Rocket Rods, then Buzz Lightyear's Astro Blasters. Submarine Voyage added Finding Nemo. The Peoplemover and the Skyway were removed. The only thing really Tomorrow about the land was the Rocket Jets and Mission To Mars. Not much else is Tomorrow themed. Even Space Mountain is a sci -fi futuristic thrill ride. It would be too difficult to try to theme the land to some future time. Only to have it become outdated by the time they complete it. They should just keep it in the retro Tomorrowland theme and leave it at that. There's no need to add details (details to what?) The land can continue to be Tomorrowland but with other themed attractions. It will always be Tomorrowland even though the theme has gone more sci-fi and futuristic. The should find something to put on the People mover track. The land is lacking energy motion. The Astro Orbitor is really stupid by the entrance and I hate those stupid jutting rocks. The antenna where the Rocket Jets used to be is a waste. If they want to keep the Astro Orbitor at the entrance, they should put the Rockets Jets back up there. Maybe update the design a little.

  3. #63

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Like the post, but disagree on two key areas. First the people mover if updated to maybe Pods like in The Incredibles is very futeristic. Showing it as a possible transportation system of the future. When it goes through the theater section were they had Tron have it be a city image of the future kind of like Sim City.
    The rocket going back above the the Old People mover was an amazing attraction. Being that high above the ground made it a great E ticket ride. Were it is now it is just another Dumbo ride with rockets.
    Thanks again for bringing-up the subject and welcome to Micechat
    Dave

  4. #64

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    I've seen a lot of responses saying that a Tomorrowland grounded in a sense of optimism about the future just doesn't fit with today's culture, and that retreating into fantasy is the only thing that makes sense for a redo. I can't disagree strongly enough. The fact that our culture has become so cynical with regard to new technologies is exactly why having a place like Disneyland commit itself to the idea of a better future is so important. Some of my strongest and best memories of visiting Disney World as a child involve rides like Horizons and the Living Seas, rides that were focused on just that message, and I really believe that having that message so strongly communicated when I was a child was a major factor in making me interested in science and engineering, and in generally having an optimistic outlook about the future. Does anyone really believe that we should be cynical about where our developing technologies are going to lead? We should be realistic, of course, but technology has brought incredible improvements in our lives, and to dismiss those improvements in favor of an image of a past that was "simpler" and "better" is foolish. On the whole, the past was a horrible place to live. The injustices and tragedies that were common occurrences even when Disneyland was built, but are now gone as a result of improved technology and greater empathy for others brought about by the broadened experiences that that technology has allowed, testify plainly to the value of what people believing in a better tomorrow can build.

    I've recently been watching a lot of the older Disney works, movies like Fantasia and episodes of Disneyland, and what struck me was that Disney himself wasn't afraid to try to educate people. Not just teach them facts, but to give them the sort of understanding and outlook that at that time was still considered the mark of an educated person. And not just kids, either. He seemed to genuinely believe that he was communicating important ideas to people - not talking down to them, not trying too hard to "make learning fun", but communicating complex ideas on multiple levels. Fantasia was an attempt to make classical music relatable to a wide audience, and I've seen many reports by people who are now professional musicians and composers saying that Fantasia was what got them seriously thinking about music. However, the animations chosen for each piece were often educational in themselves - information about science, mythology, history, religion, and many other subjects were all wrapped up in that tight bundle, ready to be opened at whatever level the viewer could appreciate it. Doing that kind of work requires taking both the art itself and the audience seriously, and that's just not something you can do with "Star Wars Land" or "Marvel Land". Much as I love Star Wars, and have no difficulty with using the franchise for individual attractions or even its own mini-park, if that's the way they want to go, replacing Tomorrowland with something like that would be a travesty. The names of the lands say it all: Adventure, Frontier, Fantasy, Tomorrow. Those are the stuff archetypes are made of. Star Wars is based on archetypes, but it sure as heck isn't an archetype itself. Tomorrowland needs to be about Tomorrow, both speculative (science fiction, brands like Star Wars) and substantial (the idea behind attractions like the Monsanto House of the Future and Innoventions, if not always the execution). Staying ahead of an ever-approaching horizon is difficult, certainly, but I really believe that if Disney, the corporation, cared as much about making people excited about the future as Disney, the man, did, they'd find the money and people to make it happen.

    To make a long post short, I agree with the OP - the suggestions he makes are very good, and would be a huge improvement for Tomorrowland as it is. The details and thought behind their work have always been what set Disney animators and Imagineers apart. When it comes to choosing the content of a new Tomorrowland, however, Disney needs to remember that while they're in the business of entertaining people, that doesn't mean that they have to give up on some of the values that built Disneyland, and Disney as a company, just because fewer and fewer people share them.

  5. #65

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    What a great post, CDW

  6. #66

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Very eloquently put Travis! I couldn't agree with your suggestions more. Yes, the 1966 version of Tomorrowland was wonderful, in 1966! I too am nostalgic when I remember the Carousel of Progress. However, Tomorrowland needs to move forward. This is a challenging land for the Imagineers because technology is constantly changing and it doesn't take long for it to become obsolete.

    I truly hope that you yourself will pursue a career in Imagineering. Disney needs more bright and talented "Magic Makers."

  7. #67

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Very well said, CDW. Great post!

  8. #68

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Well can you really blame people for being a bit cynical at least when it comes to space exploration

    Technology has progressed by leaps and bounds, but we havent sent a man back to the moon for over 50 years.
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
    -Dr. Strange

  9. #69

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Well can you really blame people for being a bit cynical at least when it comes to space exploration
    Yes, I can. That cynicism is part of the reason why we haven't sent a man back to the moon for over 50 years. NASA has been hobbled since Apollo 11 by huge budget cuts. It's a perennial target for money-seeking Congresspeople who don't see the value in frontiers (what was the name of that other Land again?), and who have extremely shortsighted views on risk. Those Congresspeople keep getting elected by a public that doesn't really see space exploration through any framework other than Star Wars, because Star Wars is all they've really seen. And NASA ain't Star Wars.

    I don't mean to be political, because that's not what this forum is for; I'm just trying to say that, regardless of the specific content they choose, instilling a respect and understanding of things that matter is something Disney should be in the business of, not just entertainment. If that doesn't include space travel right now, I can deal with it, even if I don't like it, but the core assumption has to be the same - optimism and excitement about the future.

    And thanks, CaliforniaAdventurer and gatheringrosebuds.

  10. #70

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Technology has progressed by leaps and bounds, but we havent sent a man back to the moon for over 50 years.
    Over 50 years? Its barely been 40 years (Apollo 17 left in December 1972).

  11. #71

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by Medd63 View Post
    Over 50 years? Its barely been 40 years (Apollo 17 left in December 1972).
    Heh, good point. I should have caught that .

  12. #72

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by Medd63 View Post
    Over 50 years? Its barely been 40 years (Apollo 17 left in December 1972).
    I never claimed to have been good at math, although I did look at that year as well haha

    Thanks.

    Still 40 years is a long time in regards to progress
    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
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  13. #73

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    I've seen a lot of responses saying that a Tomorrowland grounded in a sense of optimism about the future just doesn't fit with today's culture, and that retreating into fantasy is the only thing that makes sense for a redo. I can't disagree strongly enough. The fact that our culture has become so cynical with regard to new technologies is exactly why having a place like Disneyland commit itself to the idea of a better future is so important.
    So very true!

    There were plenty of cynics around in the 1960's, too - Walt acknowledged that a lot of people found his ideas corny even then. But instead of giving in to the naysayers, he made the best possible corn he could and it worked.

  14. #74

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Buh-Buh-bum! (Cue corny dramatic music)

  15. #75

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by CDW View Post
    Yes, I can. That cynicism is part of the reason why we haven't sent a man back to the moon for over 50 years.
    I wouldn't say it is cynicism as.much as it is pragmatism. It isn't enough to say we need to go to the Moon just for the sake of going to the moon. There has to be another reason. In the 1960s, we went to the moon for purely political reasons. Considering the cost of going to the Moon in blood and treasure, is it really worth the cost? What makes it worth the cost?

    Thinking about NASA, it seems clear to me that they are doing more research and have more programs now than they dis in the 1960s. The unmanned rovers on Mars and orbiting observatories are generating mountains of data that Apollo would never hope to match. But while NASA is generating content like never before, the public interest just isn't there. Dare I even suggest that the original public internet was also politically driven?

    All that being the case, you can't force education on a public that doesn't want it. Disneyland has had quite a few educational experiences that just don't work in the current resort environment. Even something as well done as the Walt Disney Family Museum probably wouldn't work at Disneyland.

    Maybe someday that will.change but until it does, it is a far better thing that Disneyland does not risk alienating their audience.

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