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  1. #76

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Very good post! Well stated.
    For the love of Disney....

  2. #77

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    I wouldn't say it is cynicism as.much as it is pragmatism. It isn't enough to say we need to go to the Moon just for the sake of going to the moon. There has to be another reason. In the 1960s, we went to the moon for purely political reasons. Considering the cost of going to the Moon in blood and treasure, is it really worth the cost? What makes it worth the cost?
    I wouldn't say we went to the moon for purely political reasons. I don't know whether we would have gone at that time without the pressure of beating the Soviets, but the attraction of pure science and the psychological and economic prizes to be found in opening frontiers did then and does still carry weight with some people. I don't want to get into an extended debate about the relative costs and benefits of space exploration here, but I do challenge you to ask yourself: do you really think that we should limit ourselves to Earth forever? And if not, when should we start building the tools to get ourselves out there? It's not unprincipled for your answer to be "Not now", but I think that the best evidence and arguments would point toward sooner rather than later.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    All that being the case, you can't force education on a public that doesn't want it. Disneyland has had quite a few educational experiences that just don't work in the current resort environment. Even something as well done as the Walt Disney Family Museum probably wouldn't work at Disneyland.

    Maybe someday that will.change but until it does, it is a far better thing that Disneyland does not risk alienating their audience.
    You can't force education on a public that doesn't want it (public schools aside), but nobody's being forced to go to Disneyland, either. The beauty of the kind of multi-layered works I mentioned earlier is that if you're bound and determined against learning anything, you can always just sit back and look at the pretty pictures. When it's really well-done, though, you don't notice that you learned something. To bring things back to Star Wars, how many fans do you know who can recite all sorts of random facts and details from those imagined histories? You can't help but learn things whenever you experience a story - the question is whether the things you're learning are applicable to real life. Make a high-quality, entertaining experience, that includes factual information and good values presented as a natural part of that experience, and people will remember it. I'm not suggesting building 1980's EPCOT on top of Tomorrowland, or filling the place with museums - I'm saying that Tomorrowland should be a place that offers an exciting, appealing vision of the future that requires as few assumptions as possible to allow the guest to believe that it's not just a future, but their future, and one they want to live in. When people walk away with that kind of a vision in their heads, it becomes something they want to be a part of building, and if it's done right, they've learned a few things that will take them a step or two closer to being able to. That's the kind of education I'm talking about.

  3. #78

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    Then why did they put the Mary Blair murals in Tomorrowland? They would have easily fit in the Small Worls Mall area - and perhaps would have made more sense thematically there. So there must be something in those murals that would have made sense to have it in Tomorowland.
    Mary Blair's murals would not have fit easily in Small World. The theme of north mural was of global communication with satellites and ribbons representing communication networks (pretty futuristic before the internet). The theme of the south mural was energy. Yes, there is optimism, but I'm not so sure world peace, just that Walt looked at children as the world's greatest resource and the mural paid homage to their creative energies.

    In the end, they had big walls to decorate with something and Walt liked Mary Blair's work so he hired her to do them, but did most guests stop to look at them and try to figure out the communication/energy theme? Also, Blair's art was pretty modern for the time, and hence kinda fit in a contemporary vision of Tomorrowland.

    There is a difference, no matter how subtle you see it, between celebrating/honoring children worldwide and saying that the adults with their finger on the button will learn to live with each other.

  4. #79

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Well can you really blame people for being a bit cynical at least when it comes to space exploration

    Technology has progressed by leaps and bounds, but we havent sent a man back to the moon for over 50 years.
    China is planning a moon landing. And obviously, the US is gearing up for a manned mission to Mars at some point, though it might be decades in the future. There were plans for doing an Autopia based on the Mars rover, you'd explore an alien landscape in your rover vehicle while interacting with the environment and learning about alien planets. Still seems like a good idea to me.

    There are tons of things they could do with Tomorrowland, but nothing has been done because of money. The last new ride (not counting Nemo), Rocket Rods, was too expensive to maintain because it wasn't funded with a big enough budget in the first place. If they want to drop $400 million on a ride and a restaurant, then folks will line up to see it.

  5. #80

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by CDW View Post
    And if not, when should we start building the tools to get ourselves out there? It's not unprincipled for your answer to be "Not now", but I think that the best evidence and arguments would point toward sooner rather than later.
    It has become very much a practical matter as of late. Certainly some day we will go back to space, but it cannot and should not happen until the problems on this planet are fixed. With all the problems with the world, it seems irresponsible to discuss spending money on going to play golf on the moon.


    You can't force education on a public that doesn't want it (public schools aside), but nobody's being forced to go to Disneyland, either.
    But Disneyland does need their business to stay alive. They have to cater to what the guests want, because if the guests stop coming, they cease to exist. The guests aren't forced to come to Disneyland, but Disneyland is forced to make them happy. When Disneyland tears down Tomorrowland to build Star Wars land, it will because that is what the guests want above all else.

    I'm saying that Tomorrowland should be a place that offers an exciting, appealing vision of the future that requires as few assumptions as possible to allow the guest to believe that it's not just a future, but their future, and one they want to live in. When people walk away with that kind of a vision in their heads, it becomes something they want to be a part of building, and if it's done right, they've learned a few things that will take them a step or two closer to being able to. That's the kind of education I'm talking about.
    That paragraph reminded me of a project Disney has been working on that is straight out of Tomorrowland:

    At parks, Disney invests in interactive experiences

    With MyMagic+, the wristbands eventually will accompany a mobile phone app that lets visitors reserve firework- and parade-viewing areas, set up a meeting with Mickey or pick rides so as to skip the line. In addition, the band will gather information about a guest's behavior that could be key to even more personalized experiences in the future – a princess wowing a little girl by asking whether she enjoyed her pancakes for breakfast, for instance. The New York Times said analysts peg the total cost of the project at $800 million to $1 billion.


    Disney has a rich tradition of evaluating every kind of technology it comes across for how it can be used invisibly to tell a story, according to Disney historian and former Imagineer Jeff Kurtti. And dating back to Disneyland's animatronic Abe Lincoln, Tomorrowland, and 1982's opening of EPCOT in Florida, the company has put a premium on visions of the future. With the rise of personal computers, cell phones and the Internet, though, the company was hard-pressed to build experiences that matched what visitors already had in their homes, say some longtime Disney watchers.


    Today the company is facing a world where most people walking around its parks have a handheld, Internet-connected computer begging to draw their attention away from the immersive, and lucrative, experience at hand.


    "It's definitely harder today and it takes more effort on our part today than it did in the past," said Scott Trowbridge, vice president of research and development at Disney's Glendale offices. "Our obligation to keep pace or beat that pace is also our opportunity to create new forms of magic ... as technology progresses, so does the size of our tool box."
    Don't you find it somewhat ironic that Disney is spending billions to create the future of theme parks, but it has been so derided by the fans and community here? Isn't it hypocritical to be calling for a return of a future vision to Tomorrowland, when so many are so willing to reject it when the actual future comes?

  6. #81

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    It has become very much a practical matter as of late. Certainly some day we will go back to space, but it cannot and should not happen until the problems on this planet are fixed. With all the problems with the world, it seems irresponsible to discuss spending money on going to play golf on the moon.
    First, the problems of this planet will never be "fixed". Unless we're talking very speculative futurism, there will always be suffering of one form or another. Second, saying that we should wait on space travel until these problems are fixed is like saying that it would be irresponsible to build a theme park in Anaheim while there are people dying of polio. Once you go down that rabbit hole, it's very hard to see how to turn back. How can you justify buying your morning coffee when there are children starving in Africa? Almost any use for your income above subsistence, when weighed against someone's life, seems selfish, so why are we not monsters for failing to donate the vast majority of our resources to charity? Furthermore, all the earthly problem-solving in the world will come to nothing in the face of catastrophic climate change or asteroid strike. Even yet furthermore, the resources available off our planet would certainly not hurt the cause of fixing those Earthly problems. Again, I don't want to stray too far off-topic, but I want to make clear that there's a lot more to space exploration than playing golf on the moon.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    But Disneyland does need their business to stay alive. They have to cater to what the guests want, because if the guests stop coming, they cease to exist. The guests aren't forced to come to Disneyland, but Disneyland is forced to make them happy. When Disneyland tears down Tomorrowland to build Star Wars land, it will because that is what the guests want above all else.
    What the guests want above all else, or what management thinks is the safest bet for the biggest return on investment above all else? Because those two options aren't necessarily the same thing. And what I was saying about Walt Disney's attitude toward education is directly applicable here - the goal shouldn't be to simply cater to guests. When people go to see a Disney film or visit a park rather than stay home, it's because Disney is providing them with something they don't feel they can provide for themselves. They're trusting in Disney's judgment to bring them a product they'll want. They're trusting that the artists involved have the knowledge, experience, and taste to do a better job at entertaining than they themselves would. It would be nice if Disney management would trust those artists in that same way, rather than worrying so much about what focus groups and surveys say about what people say they want.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    That paragraph reminded me of a project Disney has been working on that is straight out of Tomorrowland:

    (MyMagic+ article)

    Don't you find it somewhat ironic that Disney is spending billions to create the future of theme parks, but it has been so derided by the fans and community here? Isn't it hypocritical to be calling for a return of a future vision to Tomorrowland, when so many are so willing to reject it when the actual future comes?
    Calling MyMagic+ "the actual future" as though it represents the sort of aspirational futurism I'm talking about is way off the mark. While the hype and privacy concerns surrounding the technology have been enormously overblown (back to public cynicism and irrationality about technology), it's also a patently corporate move, at least in everything I've seen about it. No child is going to get excited about paying for things by swiping a wristband. Having the characters know your name is kind of cool, but it's kind of creepy too, and I think kids get that. The fact that Disney apparently thinks the capability so valuable that they've spent as much as they have on the thing is just sad. There are so many amazing technologies out there, things that might actually get kids (and adults) excited about what they may be able to do in the real world soon enough, but Disney focuses on implementing something that millions of people have been using to get into their office buildings for years. MyMagic+ is not "the future of theme parks" in any meaningful way, because from the guest perspective theme parks aren't about how you pay for your popcorn.

    As to what the article says about the difficulty of keeping technologically ahead of people with the internet in their pockets, that's absolutely true. It is hard. But last I checked, Imagineering is in the business of doing hard things. Talk to futurists and technologists, look at the progress in the fields you're interested in, and pick a time horizon. Make your best guess at what really cool technologies are still twenty to fifty years down the road. Those are your aspirational technologies. You tell stories about using those. Then take a look at what's maybe five years away from common usage. Once you have, you bring in prototypes and you let people interact with them. Then you throw in some out-there science fiction, like Star Wars, to catch people's imagination and excitement. Do you have to change things out a lot, and update your rides to match the progress of the real world? Yes, you do. But I believe it's worth it, and much more valuable in the long run than another Star Wars ride. I would much rather go to a park that I can believe takes me and itself seriously, rather than just feeding me more of what they think will keep me occupied for a few hours.

  7. #82

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    "Tomorrow is a heck of a thing to keep up with."

    ​- Walter Elias Disney

  8. #83

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by xboxtravis7992 View Post
    When I browse this site I regularly notice speculation and desires for a Tomorrowland refurbishment. However I notice one desire which constantly confuses me, people expressing their wish to return to the 1966 Tomorrowland design, with Mary Blair Murals, Astro Jets, Peoplemovers, and Circlevisions. Yet every time I look at photos of 1966-1997 Tomorrowland I see the future as envisioned in 1966. 47 years have passed since then. The 1966 Tomorrowland in my view is dated, and any future refurbishment of Tomorrowland should not be a carbon copy of the 1966 version.

    This though begs the question, what exactly is wrong with the current Tommorowland? How could a land with a popular E-ticket coaster and an excellent D-Ticket simulator be hated by so many fans? It is all in the lack of details; while the minimalist approach worked in 1966, modern audiences have become used to highly detailed Science Fiction stories. Tomorrowland lacks the detail seen in other areas of the park (such as New Orleans, Adventureland, Cars Land, ect. ect. ect.), giving the impression the future is a city with nobody living in it. Returning to the minimalist 1966 design patterns would only further the lack of detail.

    Instead of looking to the past Disneyland should actually look to the future for Tomorrowland. Every facade other than Space Mountain's should be removed and reworked to a represent modern futurism. The Peoplemover track should be removed, and only replaced if a visually pleasing and OSHA complaint ride can be installed. Buzz, EO, Nemo, Autopia, and Innoventions should be seriously updated or replaced with new rides. Most importantly a redone Tomorrowland should carry detail galore, relying on Imagineering's famously complex prop setting and backstories (yet not the extent the land becomes cluttered like the WDW Tomorrowland). These details should convey the sense of a future people live in, not a sterile neutron bomb cleansed city from 1966.

    Wow. NOT an awesome post. A woefully uninformed post because you lack any sort of knowledge of the "experience" that was Tomorrowland in 1967. You must agree that the other lands of Disneyland immerse you in the feeling of being in a "different place" and a "different time" as soon as you walk into it. That was the brilliance of Walt Disney and his imagination. Tomorrowland 1967 WAS that, in spades, and Michael Eisner and his crew killed it for some reason, and most of the posters here either never new of the feel of this land or have forgotten what it was like. Night time in Tomorrowland (from 1967) was "THE BEST" time I ever had in my life of going to Disneyland. I couldn't wait for night time to fall and go back into Tomorrowland. It had a "feel" like no other. The lighting, the movement, the action of the Tomorrowland terrace, it was exciting and at the same time relaxing.

    To this day it was an experience like no other. If you have not stood in Tomorrowland during this exact time on a warm summer evening in 1967-1980, you should not have any say on wether it should return or not. With the Astro Jets flying over head, the motion of the People Mover cars always moving, the Goodyear speed ramps up to the People Mover platform, the Monorail passing overhead (windows down), the Submarines, the Carousel of Progress spinning, the Matterhorn mountain and bobsleds, the Autopia Corvettes, the Flight to the Moon building, the Skyway moving overhead, the feel of the warm air, the popcorn poping, the band playing, it was something that has been missing for a long long time. There are some things left (maybe half) and it is just a sad sad state.

    They don't need to bring back 1967, but they could take that Tomorrowland and improve on it, especially with todays technology. It could be an even better 1967 Tomorrowland.

  9. #84

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    I think Space Mountain needs some holograms added to the Q and ride...as fun a it is....nothing in the ride feels like "Tomorrow" feels more like a ride made in the 70's and somewhat updated

    I mean to be honest...at this point no ride/show there has anything that blows my mind...heck the tech in HM and Pirates is more impressive then anything found in Tomorrowland

  10. #85

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Actually, the last Lunar landing was Apollo 17 in 1972...41 years.

  11. #86

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by disneylandfan View Post
    Wow. NOT an awesome post. A woefully uninformed post because you lack any sort of knowledge of the "experience" that was Tomorrowland in 1967. You must agree that the other lands of Disneyland immerse you in the feeling of being in a "different place" and a "different time" as soon as you walk into it. That was the brilliance of Walt Disney and his imagination. Tomorrowland 1967 WAS that, in spades, and Michael Eisner and his crew killed it for some reason, and most of the posters here either never new of the feel of this land or have forgotten what it was like. Night time in Tomorrowland (from 1967) was "THE BEST" time I ever had in my life of going to Disneyland. I couldn't wait for night time to fall and go back into Tomorrowland. It had a "feel" like no other. The lighting, the movement, the action of the Tomorrowland terrace, it was exciting and at the same time relaxing.

    To this day it was an experience like no other. If you have not stood in Tomorrowland during this exact time on a warm summer evening in 1967-1980, you should not have any say on wether it should return or not. With the Astro Jets flying over head, the motion of the People Mover cars always moving, the Goodyear speed ramps up to the People Mover platform, the Monorail passing overhead (windows down), the Submarines, the Carousel of Progress spinning, the Matterhorn mountain and bobsleds, the Autopia Corvettes, the Flight to the Moon building, the Skyway moving overhead, the feel of the warm air, the popcorn poping, the band playing, it was something that has been missing for a long long time. There are some things left (maybe half) and it is just a sad sad state.

    They don't need to bring back 1967, but they could take that Tomorrowland and improve on it, especially with todays technology. It could be an even better 1967 Tomorrowland.
    Haha...WOW! You certainly don't offer an objective POV, do you?
    Understandable, however; I think we ALL have a tendency to get emotional about this overall subject, or else we wouldn't BE here.

  12. #87

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    When people say Tomorrowland needs to be updated, well to what? They say, "It's not as futuristic as it was when if first opened." Okay. On one hand you have people screaming for the People Mover and on the other hand you have people who want something totally futuristic. And in today's world, what exactly is tomorrow? I mean 10 years ago, to have phones that are connected to the internet was futuristic. Now, not so much. Do we look at Tomorrowland as a sci-fi land and just keep adding Star Wars, Star Trek, and the latest movie? Or do we look it as a place where people can let their imaginations run wild and become the creatives of the future that will think up of smart phones, etc. I'm still waiting for my flying car that was promised in the '50's!!!

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    Thumbs up Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Yes it is an emotional topic! Your right!


    Quote Originally Posted by oddball View Post
    When people say Tomorrowland needs to be updated, well to what? They say, "It's not as futuristic as it was when if first opened." Okay. On one hand you have people screaming for the People Mover and on the other hand you have people who want something totally futuristic. And in today's world, what exactly is tomorrow? I mean 10 years ago, to have phones that are connected to the internet was futuristic. Now, not so much. Do we look at Tomorrowland as a sci-fi land and just keep adding Star Wars, Star Trek, and the latest movie? Or do we look it as a place where people can let their imaginations run wild and become the creatives of the future that will think up of smart phones, etc. I'm still waiting for my flying car that was promised in the '50's!!!

    This post is also a good one. How do you change Tomorrowland? Do you do futuristic stuff? Do you just do the last movie? Etc.

    Well, Walts vision was "a world on the move", and it worked, some might not think it was very "futuristic", but I don't think that it was intended to be futuristic. I think he took a simple idea, "mobility", that was going to be very important to everyone in the future, so he went with the transportation idea as his theme. I'm a car guy, so I liked it, and I think it made Tomorrowland very exciting. Simulating riding in a rocket to the moon, taking a submarine ride down to the bottom of the ocean, driving a car, flying in a plane, even the public transportation theme was fun with the monorail and people mover rides, and the circle vision theater idea was good too since it put you in motion with the camera, hold on to that handrail. Remember?

    The Circle Vision idea really should come back too. Or maybe put a "Soaring over California" type ride where the Captain Eo theater is now. Combining the "Soaring" ride with the Circle Vision attraction, and you could do some amazing ride simulations. How about a 360 degree view from the cockpit of an Indy car or Stock Car at 200mph? Then switch to taking off or landing a fighter jet on an aircraft carrier? The possibilities are really endless for a good simulation ride or attraction if done correctly.

    Request number 1 though: Get rid of the Jules Verne theme. (Ugh) And go back to the transportation theme.

    Request number 2: Bring back the People Mover first.

    Request number 3: Get rid of the Jules Verne themed rocket ride that blocks the entrance to Tomorrowland. Put it back up in the air where it belongs above the People Mover platform.

    Request number 4: Bring back the CircleVision attraction. Updated of course. Either in the old location or the Captain EO theater.

    Request number 5: Change the Submarine ride back to being a "voyage to the bottom of the sea" (not Jules Verne) theme. Something a bit more adult oriented because it really shouldn't be themed for 5 year old kids anyway. Sort of an expensive ride for little kids.

    Request number 6: Put a ride back in the Flight to the moon building.

    Request number 7: Skyway thru the Matterhorn back to Fantasyland. (Get the lawyers to let you put it back).

    Tomorrowland used to be the best land and it can be again.

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by 550Deano View Post
    Rumor is Innoventions, Autopia and Nemo will be gone to make way for Star Wars themed attractions....Just sayin....
    Hi and Welcome to Micechat

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    You guys have to see T67's photo set of the 1967 version of TL. I remember it as a place full of life, motion, excitement and a shiny glamour at night. What we're nostalgic for is that feeling. And originality, imagination, concept, the gestalt of being in a self-contained world based on a theme. As they say "The park is the ride."
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