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  1. #91

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    TL '67 was inspired largely by the real-world events that were occuring during that timeframe. The escalating Cold War, Vietnam, growing public interest in space and the imminent moon landing, the civil rights movement. People are largely a product of their times, and these things factored into what went into TL '67. The '60s were by and large a time of political unrest, and Disney did a neat thing by using those events to paint the picture for a more modern, peaceful and united world. I think TL '67 was also more in line with what Walt had envisioned when he first opened Disneyland. It had suffered budget cuts and short-term attractions in 1955, and it took more than ten years for it to become representative of what Walt was after. Sadly, he didn't live to see the end result. But that Tomorrowland held strong for nearly 30 years and arguably, could have held strong even longer. Even so, I think if the political landscape had been more popular in the '60s, it would have resulted in a less ambitious Tomorrowland.

    Fast forward to the years between 1998 and 2012. What seemed like an overall peaceful time in the '90s was turned upside down after September 11. The Iraq War and growing of the central government created another hostile political landscape. And then a never-ending recession began. But this time, there was nothing to look up to as there had been in the '60s. Too many national and global problems left little room for space exploration or other significant advancements when it comes to imagination-capturing technology. Sure, we have smartphones, and the virtual world is a bigger part of our lives than ever, but nothing grand to spark the imagination and instill a promise of a more peaceful and better tomorrow. Without such promise, people are forced to turn to what we have now. And what we have now for escapism isn't as imaginative as what there may have been before. Nowadays, escapism involves the latest Access Hollywood news, voting for your favorite American Idol, a weekend in Vegas, checking Facebook every ten minutes, and having the latest gadget or Louis Vuiton bag that will be outdated in six months. Today's society is one with a heart set on instant gratification rather than one willing to wait for more world-changing, meaningful events. Factor in a Disney corporation that is less ambitious than what it was in the '60s, and you have yourself a solid stalemate of a Tomorrowland that seems to be stuck in an everlasting suspension.

    Focussing solely on Tomorrowland, the problem isn't that Disney created a new TL in '98, but it was the way they did it. I think on paper, the idea of a Jules Verne-inspired TL wasn't bad, but the execution was half-baked. It didn't make sense for them to leave the architecture as it had been previously, and things such as Rocket Rods suffered inadequate support. If they had gone in all the way and re-done TL from the ground up, I think the end results could have been quite grandiose. So now, the issue at hand has been to correct what was done in '98. Disney had actually been doing quite a bit to get away from TL '98. After opening Buzz, they repainted Star Tours, the PM track near the entrance, Innoventions, and Space Mountain. The subs made a return, Captain EO came back, and Star Tours was repainted once again when STII came about. They even repainted the Astro Orbiter. Then fast forward to 2012, and they repainted Pizza Port in the TL '98 colors. There have been times where I feel like they are making a conscious effort to revitalize TL and give it a more unifying theme, then they do something out of left field that makes little sense. (Let's not forget the '90s-esque aqua and pink colored Autopia structure and unpleasant brown handrails and PM track that are ever-present in that area.) As such, I honestly have no idea what they are up to. But what I do know is that TL is sorely lacking a cohesiveness that feels lived-in and brings the whole thing together. They desperately need a person who has an informed and strategic vision for that whole area to step in and work their magic. Someone who is respectful of Tomorrowland's past, but wise enough to give it a more everlasting feel than what it currently has and bring it past the year 2013.
    Last edited by Princess Victoria; 05-13-2013 at 11:50 AM.

  2. #92

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Surprised to see this thread got bumped back up the forums again.

    Quote Originally Posted by disneylandfan View Post
    Wow. NOT an awesome post. A woefully uninformed post because you lack any sort of knowledge of the "experience" that was Tomorrowland in 1967. You must agree that the other lands of Disneyland immerse you in the feeling of being in a "different place" and a "different time" as soon as you walk into it. That was the brilliance of Walt Disney and his imagination. Tomorrowland 1967 WAS that, in spades, and Michael Eisner and his crew killed it for some reason, and most of the posters here either never new of the feel of this land or have forgotten what it was like. Night time in Tomorrowland (from 1967) was "THE BEST" time I ever had in my life of going to Disneyland. I couldn't wait for night time to fall and go back into Tomorrowland. It had a "feel" like no other. The lighting, the movement, the action of the Tomorrowland terrace, it was exciting and at the same time relaxing.

    To this day it was an experience like no other. If you have not stood in Tomorrowland during this exact time on a warm summer evening in 1967-1980, you should not have any say on wether it should return or not. With the Astro Jets flying over head, the motion of the People Mover cars always moving, the Goodyear speed ramps up to the People Mover platform, the Monorail passing overhead (windows down), the Submarines, the Carousel of Progress spinning, the Matterhorn mountain and bobsleds, the Autopia Corvettes, the Flight to the Moon building, the Skyway moving overhead, the feel of the warm air, the popcorn poping, the band playing, it was something that has been missing for a long long time. There are some things left (maybe half) and it is just a sad sad state.

    They don't need to bring back 1967, but they could take that Tomorrowland and improve on it, especially with todays technology. It could be an even better 1967 Tomorrowland.
    I understand Tomorrowland 1967 had a cohesive theme and was a great depiction of the future in 1967. But nostalgia a good theme park land does not make. Imagine what would have happened if Fantasyland was never redone in the 80's. Or what if Buena Vista Street was never built because of nostalgia for the California letters, Golden Gate Bridge, and California Zephyr. Although 1998 was the last Tomorrowland refurbishment, it was nothing more than a paint job and a few lame duck rides. If Tomorrowland has a problem, it is that it is still the 1967 version, minus cohesiveness.

    And your last paragraph was exactly my post was trying to convey. Tomorrowland needs cohesiveness, but we cannot go back to 1967. Or else it will end up being like "Todayland" in Meet The Robinsons. In the year 2013, we have airport Peoplemovers, limited commercial space travel, virtual communication, particle smashers which explore the atom, and nuclear submarines. 1967 Tomorrowland is old news.

  3. #93

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    I think on paper, the idea of a Jules Verne-inspired TL wasn't bad, but the execution was half-baked.
    Yeah, that's how I've always felt about it. Especially in WDW, it somehow manages to be over the top and half-assed at the same time.

  4. #94

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by xboxtravis7992 View Post
    Surprised to see this thread got bumped back up the forums again.



    I understand Tomorrowland 1967 had a cohesive theme and was a great depiction of the future in 1967. But nostalgia a good theme park land does not make. Imagine what would have happened if Fantasyland was never redone in the 80's. Or what if Buena Vista Street was never built because of nostalgia for the California letters, Golden Gate Bridge, and California Zephyr. Although 1998 was the last Tomorrowland refurbishment, it was nothing more than a paint job and a few lame duck rides. If Tomorrowland has a problem, it is that it is still the 1967 version, minus cohesiveness.

    And your last paragraph was exactly my post was trying to convey. Tomorrowland needs cohesiveness, but we cannot go back to 1967. Or else it will end up being like "Todayland" in Meet The Robinsons. In the year 2013, we have airport Peoplemovers, limited commercial space travel, virtual communication, particle smashers which explore the atom, and nuclear submarines. 1967 Tomorrowland is old news.

    They should do a "reset" and go back to the 1967 Tomorrowland, then, try to improve on that. What they have now is awful and a joke and they should be embarassed to even promote it as an actual Disneyland Tomorrowland. It screams for help. If they just put back everything the way it was it would be 10 times better, and I'll bet you would be amazed at how good it was and you would see what I'm talking about, but thats just me wishin', its never going to happen. I'm just glad they put back the Submarine ride. One down and about 5 more to go.

    I hear OSHA has ruined the Matterhorn and Monorail cars. Thats another sad story. One of our founding fathers made the statement that "a person who willingly gives up their freedoms for security, deserves neither", applies to simple things like these too. And people just go along with it without questioning the authority of OSHA. I'm not smart enough to know how to change things but I know what we have now is no good. Pretty soon they will have us wearing a seat belt on the toilet!

  5. #95

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Its interesting to hear people talk about Tomorrowland in 1967 and how it was the best at night, they loved the live band, the feel, the smell of popcorn etc etc. that's exactly what it felt like for me as a kid after the 1998 remodel. Now that I'm older I agree that its cluttered, feels boring and lacks direction. They definitely need a new design and some new rides.

    They should either use the people mover track for something new or get rid of it. They should make autopia smaller. Put something in the captain EO space. If they want to keep BLAB, star tours, Nemo and everything else they should dress it up a bit and immerse us into that world.

    I think Tomorrowland gets a bad rap because of its size. Honestly I spend less time in other lands because there are only 1-2 rides in them. I think people are looking for Tomorrowland to be that major land where they can spend a big portion of their day/night. The other lands that are large in size are fantasyland and Toontown and those lands are centered around children. Where's the adult hangout at?!?!

  6. #96

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    I'm probably the biggest purist on the site and have no problem admitting that.

    I will also admit that I think this has a lot to do with the fact that many of my special feelings come from growing up in the late 60s and early 70s and having fond memories of Disneyland, and Tomorrowland especially.

    Then later, hiring into what was still (pretty much) the 1967 version of Tomorrowland (as a CM in '83), just added to my fondness for the park, and that particular area. I liked the movement of the area and the electricity of the action.

    For me though, I don't consider myself necessarily blinded by feelings of nostalgia. I am a nostalgic person when it comes to things Disney, but I think my feelings about Tomorrowland are more about having experienced some attractions that were really engaging, and didn't rely on a movie.

    Should a return to past attractions be a part of any Tomorrowland redo?

    While I think an updated ATIS or Mars would be awesome, I don't think that would be necessary to make me happy.

    I do think that straying from movies though and doing something more didactic and thought-provoking would definitely get the job done. For me that would be enough because, IMO, it's more about the philosophy than it is about just bringing back an old attraction. Give me something that doesn't have to do with a movie. Give me something that is generic and provides a fun, thought-provoking, and engaging experience.

    Give me that, and I'll stop talking about Inner Space, Mars, and the liquid space of Subs. <g>

  7. #97

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by xboxtravis7992 View Post
    When I browse this site I regularly notice speculation and desires for a Tomorrowland refurbishment. However I notice one desire which constantly confuses me, people expressing their wish to return to the 1966 Tomorrowland design, with Mary Blair Murals, Astro Jets, Peoplemovers, and Circlevisions. Yet every time I look at photos of 1966-1997 Tomorrowland I see the future as envisioned in 1966. 47 years have passed since then. The 1966 Tomorrowland in my view is dated, and any future refurbishment of Tomorrowland should not be a carbon copy of the 1966 version.

    This though begs the question, what exactly is wrong with the current Tommorowland? How could a land with a popular E-ticket coaster and an excellent D-Ticket simulator be hated by so many fans? It is all in the lack of details; while the minimalist approach worked in 1966, modern audiences have become used to highly detailed Science Fiction stories. Tomorrowland lacks the detail seen in other areas of the park (such as New Orleans, Adventureland, Cars Land, ect. ect. ect.), giving the impression the future is a city with nobody living in it. Returning to the minimalist 1966 design patterns would only further the lack of detail.

    Instead of looking to the past Disneyland should actually look to the future for Tomorrowland. Every facade other than Space Mountain's should be removed and reworked to a represent modern futurism. The Peoplemover track should be removed, and only replaced if a visually pleasing and OSHA complaint ride can be installed. Buzz, EO, Nemo, Autopia, and Innoventions should be seriously updated or replaced with new rides. Most importantly a redone Tomorrowland should carry detail galore, relying on Imagineering's famously complex prop setting and backstories (yet not the extent the land becomes cluttered like the WDW Tomorrowland). These details should convey the sense of a future people live in, not a sterile neutron bomb cleansed city from 1966.
    Out of all of the lands Walt Disney Imagineering has ever created, the Tomorrowland sections are ALWAYS the ones constantly becoming outdated. No land other than Tomorrowland has ever felt the need to be continuously updated and altered to keep up the present's vision of tomorrow. If it is updated to show off our current view of the future, were basically just putting a band-aid on a problem that has faced the park since inception: Tomorrowland is constantly becoming out of date because it is based on a vague concept of time. The only way to fix that is to give the area a fixed time. Referencing TLC, I think they should stop chasing that waterfall and find a river or a lake they can stick to.

  8. #98

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by Design View Post
    Out of all of the lands Walt Disney Imagineering has ever created, the Tomorrowland sections are ALWAYS the ones constantly becoming outdated. No land other than Tomorrowland has ever felt the need to be continuously updated and altered to keep up the present's vision of tomorrow. If it is updated to show off our current view of the future, were basically just putting a band-aid on a problem that has faced the park since inception: Tomorrowland is constantly becoming out of date because it is based on a vague concept of time. The only way to fix that is to give the area a fixed time. Referencing TLC, I think they should stop chasing that waterfall and find a river or a lake they can stick to.
    Just because it's difficult to present and maintain a relevant, meaningful vision of the future doesn't mean they should simply give up the attempt. Fixing the time doesn't solve anything; any set date is either going to be in the future, in which case we'll catch up to it, or in the present or the past, which you have to admit presents certain problems for a place called Tomorrowland.

    Unless, of course, by "fixed time" you mean something like Star Wars's "long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" - but that's hardly a fixed time in any meaningful way. All that does is establish that we're not talking about any actual future, but about a fantasy world with "futuristic" trappings. That's what the whole Jules Verne aspect of Discoveryland in Paris does. The fact that they changed the name is significant; it's explicitly no longer about Tomorrow, it's about science-flavored adventure harkening back to a vision of the future that has broad appeal, but can safely retreat to the defense of fantasy to avoid being called irrelevant as an actual exercise in futurism. '50s kitsch or pseudo-Victorian/Steampunk can both serve in that role, and both have been used to combat the relevance problem, but both also (at least to me) feel empty in a place called Tomorrowland. It's almost saying that we don't really have a tomorrow; all we have is recycled imagery from times in the past when people thought they did.

    What it seems like you're really asking is whether it's worthwhile for Disneyland to have a place called Tomorrowland at all, as opposed to moving in the Discoveryland direction, or just giving up on science fiction and futurism altogether. That's a valid question, and if Disney can't stomach presenting an actual, original vision of the future, I'd almost be on the side of saying it's not worthwhile anymore. But as long as the place is still being called Tomorrowland, it should at least make an effort to be about some actual tomorrow.

  9. #99

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by xboxtravis7992 View Post
    It is all in the lack of details; while the minimalist approach worked in 1966, modern audiences have become used to highly detailed Science Fiction stories. Tomorrowland lacks the detail seen in other areas of the park (such as New Orleans, Adventureland, Cars Land, ect. ect. ect.), giving the impression the future is a city with nobody living in it. Returning to the minimalist 1966 design patterns would only further the lack of detail.
    If Apple has taught us anything, it's that high quality simplistic designs are futuristic in every way. No one likes gaudy detailing and it most certainly does not describe what most of us would envision our future to be like. Walt and his imagineers were right on the money before Apple even existed. The "highly detailed" Tomorrowland of today is a complete mess compared to that vision.

    No one is saying to copy the Tomorrowland of old brick for brick, simply they should use it as inspiration for a new design that could impress 21st century guests. Tron light cycles would be a great start on the Peoplemover track. In addition, re-theming or removing FNSV, BLAB, and Autopia is absolutely necessary to achieve the cohesiveness this land was once known for.
    Last edited by Seawolf; 05-21-2013 at 09:05 AM.

  10. #100

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Everyone's version of tomorrow is different. The poster's is an xbox version that he has experienced and would like to see, but also can really experience at anytime he wants through the right movie or game. I grew up on Star Wars, yet now that I'm over 40 I can appreciate the future that the 67 saw and in no way have we even gotten close to those great visions, so even if it went back a bit on a few things, they are still the future to us (haven't really set foot on mars, commuted in flying cars, or taken a spacecruise yet have we?). It's not dated, it is just that the xbox generation builds/buys whatever maps or experiences they would like to see and rather than ever knowing what full immersion truly is.
    While I never got to ride the peoplemover or rocket to the moon, but the sheer building of life size "real life" (not cgi) attractions that you can share with your family is what's made Disneyland great.
    Once you really appreciate what was built in the past for what it is even if you don't have the nostalgia of it, you will be able to see it is not as easy to throw off every bit of the old in favor of the new. I myself would love a real life light cycle ride on the peoplemover tracks with a cycle that covers the riders completely and enhances the real life tomorrowland around them from the inside of the vehicle (i guess think big iron man helmet, but a cycle). Overall theme of Tomorrowland all having to be completely cohesive is not necessary as the cities of tomorrow won't be, there will be the best of the old along with 80% new.
    Much like art, having a real appreciation for the past and not always wanting to throw it all out, makes the future a whole light brighter.

  11. #101

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by Design View Post
    Out of all of the lands Walt Disney Imagineering has ever created, the Tomorrowland sections are ALWAYS the ones constantly becoming outdated. No land other than Tomorrowland has ever felt the need to be continuously updated and altered to keep up the present's vision of tomorrow. If it is updated to show off our current view of the future, were basically just putting a band-aid on a problem that has faced the park since inception: Tomorrowland is constantly becoming out of date because it is based on a vague concept of time. The only way to fix that is to give the area a fixed time. Referencing TLC, I think they should stop chasing that waterfall and find a river or a lake they can stick to.
    This idea that most people have of Walt's Tomorrowland being based on a "vague concept of time" is not all that accurate and I think people have somehow convinced themselves that this "IS" what Walt's concept was, and I would like to reiterate that I remember him saying that Tomorrowland was a "World in motion" or "A World on the Move". He presented Tomorrowland as a forum for everything "transportation", such as Cars, Trains, Rockets, Submarines, and PeopleMovers and Monorails. HA! Why does everyone keep thinking that this was supposed to be some sort of futuristic deeply thought provoking land. Maybe part of it was in a small way. Like Monsanto's Adventure thru Inner Space, or the Future House etc. But, the real reason the rides went away is simple, the dummies that came along in the later years with Michael Eisner and his penny pinchers killed off rides that were starting to cost too much to operate, or were going to cost too much to rehab. So, it was easier to just turn off the switch to the ride than fix it. It had nothing to do with being "outdated" in some sort of futuristic fashion that everyone here keeps thinking happened. It just plain comes down to cost of maintanence and that is sad. Those old rides had atmosphere and added much to the park. Eisner just said kill it, rather than spend the money to save it, and now 20 years later we are still seeing the effects of those bad decisions.

    If they brought back those old rides, I would ride them everytime I visit the park, even the Carousel of Progress. Loved it too, even as a kid.

  12. #102

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by disneylandfan View Post
    This idea that most people have of Walt's Tomorrowland being based on a "vague concept of time" is not all that accurate and I think people have somehow convinced themselves that this "IS" what Walt's concept was, and I would like to reiterate that I remember him saying that Tomorrowland was a "World in motion" or "A World on the Move". He presented Tomorrowland as a forum for everything "transportation", such as Cars, Trains, Rockets, Submarines, and PeopleMovers and Monorails. HA! Why does everyone keep thinking that this was supposed to be some sort of futuristic deeply thought provoking land. Maybe part of it was in a small way. Like Monsanto's Adventure thru Inner Space, or the Future House etc. But, the real reason the rides went away is simple, the dummies that came along in the later years with Michael Eisner and his penny pinchers killed off rides that were starting to cost too much to operate, or were going to cost too much to rehab. So, it was easier to just turn off the switch to the ride than fix it. It had nothing to do with being "outdated" in some sort of futuristic fashion that everyone here keeps thinking happened. It just plain comes down to cost of maintanence and that is sad. Those old rides had atmosphere and added much to the park. Eisner just said kill it, rather than spend the money to save it, and now 20 years later we are still seeing the effects of those bad decisions.

    If they brought back those old rides, I would ride them everytime I visit the park, even the Carousel of Progress. Loved it too, even as a kid.
    I don't disagree with your analysis of why those rides went away - saying the Eisner regime shut down rides because they had an aesthetic or artistic disagreement with them would be assuming a level of thoughtfulness and taste that I don't think is warranted - but I do take issue with the idea that much of Tomorrowland isn't about really about the future, per se. A "world in motion" was exactly Walt Disney's vision of the future. The most obvious example of what he wanted the future to be like is embodied in the original EPCOT concepts, and the fundamental innovation EPCOT was oriented around was improved, efficient, livable transportation. This is a man who built a whole rideable miniature train in his backyard - he saw a lot of things through the lens of transportation, especially his own ideas about the future. I would think that, while obviously you can approach Tomorrowland as just a collection of thrill rides, Disney very much intended to leave his audience thinking about the difference that advances in transportation could make in building a better future. You can disagree that "A World in Motion" is a good or compelling vision of the future, but I think it's definitely the vision of the future Walt Disney had in mind.

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Quote Originally Posted by CDW View Post
    I don't disagree with your analysis of why those rides went away - saying the Eisner regime shut down rides because they had an aesthetic or artistic disagreement with them would be assuming a level of thoughtfulness and taste that I don't think is warranted - but I do take issue with the idea that much of Tomorrowland isn't about really about the future, per se. A "world in motion" was exactly Walt Disney's vision of the future. The most obvious example of what he wanted the future to be like is embodied in the original EPCOT concepts, and the fundamental innovation EPCOT was oriented around was improved, efficient, livable transportation. This is a man who built a whole rideable miniature train in his backyard - he saw a lot of things through the lens of transportation, especially his own ideas about the future. I would think that, while obviously you can approach Tomorrowland as just a collection of thrill rides, Disney very much intended to leave his audience thinking about the difference that advances in transportation could make in building a better future. You can disagree that "A World in Motion" is a good or compelling vision of the future, but I think it's definitely the vision of the future Walt Disney had in mind.
    I don't disagree at all. That was my exact point.

    He presented Tomorrowland as a "world in motion", I just disagree with a lot of these younger people on this site that are lacking in the knowledge of Walts original ideas because they keep stating that Tomorrowland was supposed to be some sort of "futuristic" land and that the rides were outdated is why they were shut down. They may have been old but I don't think outdated at all. The rides still served a very valid purpose and were still fun every time I visited the park, which was every year, and sometimes 2 or 3 times a year.

    Even the "Circle-vision" theater had an element of his "world in motion" theme, probably with the idea that people would be doing more long distance vacations in the future, and he was right!

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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    ^^^ Outstanding posts disneylandfan and CDW! You guys have totally nailed the spirit, philosophy and soul of what Tomorrowland was all about.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


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    Re: Tomorrowland Redo Should Not be a Return to the Past

    Tomorrow land should look like the Jetsons..get rid of all Star Wars stuff...that is not the future it is "a long time ago"... Innoventions needs a more coherent theme...Autopia needs to go back to FL..Buzz to CA... Then maybe rework the innerspace ride for todays guests. The main thing missing that makes TlL feel so dumpy is the lack of motion. The kinetic energy of the 1966 re do is what us old hands miss the most. I would love to see maybe a new E ticket voyage to space.. or something along those lines. BUt please all you SW and marvel fans quit hoping and wishing for more of this stuff in DL. maybe a third gate but that is the problem with TlL now too many franchises not enough original thinking. I would love to see giant mushroom shaped buildings, restaurants in the sky, flying cars,with a look straight out of my favorite 1960s cartoons. Goofy"s moon rocket adventure or how about a Donald Duck 3d show about space travel. How about joining Mickeys galactic Knights. Or a light and laser show at 11pm. Move astro orbiter back. and for the love of walt please get rid of Capt. Eo. horrible then.. totally inappropriate and creepy now. This is the worst decision disney ever made IMHO. HISTA was showing its age but the creep show that is Michael dancing with kids etc just has to go now. thanks for listening folks

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