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  1. #46

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by gatheringrosebuds View Post
    Those movies may have defined was the studio was, but the real Imagineering projects that defined the park, the ones that made it unlike anything else, weren't the attractions based off of pre-existing properties. Said type of attraction certainly existed in the form of dark rides (which are certainly an important part of the park, and one that I do enjoy), but these weren't the rides that were the core of Disneyland. The rides that truly elevated Disneyland to a new standard of entertainment were the ones that were new, unique adventures that took Guests to new places, that opened new horizons of imagination and storytelling: Pirates, Haunted Mansion, "it's a small world", The Jungle Cruise, the Matterhorn, Tiki Room, Lincoln, Space Mountain, the Railroad, etc. These became the signature Disneyland attractions, icons of the park and its principles of imagination and originality and innovation. These are what made the park uniquely Disneyland, beyond just another extension of the Disney brand, but its own unique entity, a triumph of imagination and storytelling--not just a place to experience rehashes of Disney movies in three dimensions, but a place to experience the wonders of new worlds whose stories the Guests could interpret with their own imaginations through the various cues provided by this new three-dimensional medium. It wasn't just reliving moments from the screen or visiting worlds that we already knew, it was exploring the new, the fresh, the exciting, venturing into these worlds for the first time. I think that there's amazing magic in that exploration, in that discovery, in that uniqueness. This is part of the reason why franchise-based attractions can never convey the same depth as original works. Your imagination doesn't have as much space to breathe, you're limited in how you can interpret your surroundings and in what new discoveries can be made. The places that the Imagineers can take us are limited, the stories that they can tell are restricted to Disney's cannon and not the worlds that live solely inside the realms of the imagination. The best franchise-based attractions, like Star Tours and Indy, are the ones that offer your imagination more opportunities to expand, the ones that truly immerse you in a world with new details, that don't boggle you down with material that you've previously seen--often meaning that they are the the ones that can stand perfectly fine without their tie-in, they don't rely heavily on the movie's characters/events but on the spirit of that world and its ideas. But when the park becomes just another place to put brands, you lose that uniqueness, you lose that true sense of magic and wonder in whose conception imagination and originality play a critical role. You begin to experience the generic "Disney" brand rather than the new worlds that Disneyland had been praised for creating--- you begin to lose the uniqueness of Disneyland as its own magic kingdom offering new experiences as it becomes a place to relive worlds that we see on the screen. These worlds can definitely be dazzling and a fun place to visit, but the levels of creativity required to bring them to life and the levels of imagination that they evoke do not rival that of original art--that beautiful combination of story, design, and technology that defined Disneyland's identity and that made so many of us fall in love with the park.
    Brilliant! Somebody please forward this to Imagineering
    "Happy Working Song" parody for DCA remodel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-TYESfNTP8&feature=plcp

    Retro Rant Review of "The Hunchback of Notre Dame II" (comedy review of direct-to-video
    Disney sequel):
    Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/user/animagus.../1/q1j7FU8QXu0
    Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/user/animagus.../0/sasNTMDRBLU

    Retro Rant Review of "Home on the Range" (comedy review of Disney movie):
    Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7mC-...feature=relmfu
    Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoUie...feature=relmfu
    Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Vea...feature=relmfu


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  2. #47

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    ^ This. Kudos, gatheringrosebuds, for an absolutely eloquent post!


    Quote Originally Posted by gatheringrosebuds View Post
    ...The rides that truly elevated Disneyland to a new standard of entertainment were the ones that were new, unique adventures that took Guests to new places, that opened new horizons of imagination and storytelling: Pirates, Haunted Mansion, "it's a small world", The Jungle Cruise, the Matterhorn, Tiki Room, Lincoln, Space Mountain, the Railroad, etc. These became the signature Disneyland attractions, icons of the park and its principles of imagination and originality and innovation. These are what made the park uniquely Disneyland, beyond just another extension of the Disney brand, but its own unique entity, a triumph of imagination and storytelling--not just a place to experience rehashes of Disney movies in three dimensions, but a place to experience the wonders of new worlds whose stories the Guests could interpret with their own imaginations through the various cues provided by this new three-dimensional medium.
    Somebody should post that quote on a billboard outside Bob Iger's office.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  3. #48

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    Well, congratulations on all the kudos but since you began your run-on sentence as a reply to my own input, I feel it's being offered as a counter to my point. My point is still valid. One can't complain about "original" when so much of what everyone considers to be "original" isn't.

    A currently popular ride with the highest wait time between both parks is Radiator Springs Racers. It's not exactly original, it's based on Test Track at EPCOT. Also, it's based on a Pixar franchise which some proponents of originality seem to have taken issue with. Also, the movie CARS wasn't that terribly original when you consider it's an animated version of the movie Doc Hollywood.

    Again, congratulations on all the kudos from everyone but the issue was that people were complaining about how unoriginal things were and I'm just saying even the stuff you love isn't as original as you romanticize it to be. I'm hoping readers won't limit their imagination because something isn't as original as they expect it to be. Personally I love RSR and don't have any hangups where I need to complain about Imagineers, Imagineering, or the nature of what an attraction is based on.

  4. #49

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by gatheringrosebuds View Post
    Those movies may have defined was the studio was, but the real Imagineering projects that defined the park, the ones that made it unlike anything else, weren't the attractions based off of pre-existing properties. Said type of attraction certainly existed in the form of dark rides (which are certainly an important part of the park, and one that I do enjoy), but these weren't the rides that were the core of Disneyland. The rides that truly elevated Disneyland to a new standard of entertainment were the ones that were new, unique adventures that took Guests to new places, that opened new horizons of imagination and storytelling: Pirates, Haunted Mansion, "it's a small world", The Jungle Cruise, the Matterhorn, Tiki Room, Lincoln, Space Mountain, the Railroad, etc. These became the signature Disneyland attractions, icons of the park and its principles of imagination and originality and innovation. These are what made the park uniquely Disneyland, beyond just another extension of the Disney brand, but its own unique entity, a triumph of imagination and storytelling--not just a place to experience rehashes of Disney movies in three dimensions, but a place to experience the wonders of new worlds whose stories the Guests could interpret with their own imaginations through the various cues provided by this new three-dimensional medium. It wasn't just reliving moments from the screen or visiting worlds that we already knew, it was exploring the new, the fresh, the exciting, venturing into these worlds for the first time. I think that there's amazing magic in that exploration, in that discovery, in that uniqueness. This is part of the reason why franchise-based attractions can never convey the same depth as original works. Your imagination doesn't have as much space to breathe, you're limited in how you can interpret your surroundings and in what new discoveries can be made. The places that the Imagineers can take us are limited, the stories that they can tell are restricted to Disney's cannon and not the worlds that live solely inside the realms of the imagination. The best franchise-based attractions, like Star Tours and Indy, are the ones that offer your imagination more opportunities to expand, the ones that truly immerse you in a world with new details, that don't boggle you down with material that you've previously seen--often meaning that they are the the ones that can stand perfectly fine without their tie-in, they don't rely heavily on the movie's characters/events but on the spirit of that world and its ideas. But when the park becomes just another place to put brands, you lose that uniqueness, you lose that true sense of magic and wonder in whose conception imagination and originality play a critical role. You begin to experience the generic "Disney" brand rather than the new worlds that Disneyland had been praised for creating--- you begin to lose the uniqueness of Disneyland as its own magic kingdom offering new experiences as it becomes a place to relive worlds that we see on the screen. These worlds can definitely be dazzling and a fun place to visit, but the levels of creativity required to bring them to life and the levels of imagination that they evoke do not rival that of original art--that beautiful combination of story, design, and technology that defined Disneyland's identity and that made so many of us fall in love with the park.
    This might be the best post ever! thanks for sharing

  5. #50

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by fifthrider View Post
    Well, congratulations on all the kudos but since you began your run-on sentence as a reply to my own input, I feel it's being offered as a counter to my point. My point is still valid. One can't complain about "original" when so much of what everyone considers to be "original" isn't.

    A currently popular ride with the highest wait time between both parks is Radiator Springs Racers. It's not exactly original, it's based on Test Track at EPCOT. Also, it's based on a Pixar franchise which some proponents of originality seem to have taken issue with. Also, the movie CARS wasn't that terribly original when you consider it's an animated version of the movie Doc Hollywood.

    Again, congratulations on all the kudos from everyone but the issue was that people were complaining about how unoriginal things were and I'm just saying even the stuff you love isn't as original as you romanticize it to be. I'm hoping readers won't limit their imagination because something isn't as original as they expect it to be. Personally I love RSR and don't have any hangups where I need to complain about Imagineers, Imagineering, or the nature of what an attraction is based on.
    What about the following isn't original?

    Pirates, Haunted Mansion, "it's a small world", The Jungle Cruise, the Matterhorn, Tiki Room, Lincoln, Space Mountain, the Railroad, etc.
    “No worries, stay calm, one question. 
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  6. #51

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    I'm pretty sure that Walt did not invent Pirates, haunted houses, jungle safaris, president speeches or mountains. He got the idea from pop-culture and lore.

  7. #52

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    Kudos to everyone on a fun thread

  8. #53

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Walt did not invent Pirates, haunted houses, jungle safaris, president speeches or mountains. He got the idea from pop-culture and lore.
    Yes, but for those attractions he did not give his Imagineers a copy of a recently released movie and said "Follow this and make it come under budget".
    “No worries, stay calm, one question. 
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  9. #54

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneymike View Post
    Yes, but for those attractions he did not give his Imagineers a copy of a recently released movie and said "Follow this and make it come under budget".
    Maybe not a direct representation, but these released movies are certainly of the same theme:

    1950 Treasure Island (1950 movie)

    1954 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (1954 movie)

    1955 Davy Crockett, King of the Wild Frontier

    1956 The Great Locomotive Chase (movie)




    Would Cars land be better if it was themed as a Small town that loved American racing culture???

  10. #55

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneymike View Post
    What about the following isn't original?
    And you could add several others, Mike. Others that Walt oversaw himself, and those he didn't, like Mission to Mars, Inner Space, and others that, sadly, came after his passing. I think he would have loved those because of the edutainment experiences they provided. Something he found important.

  11. #56

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by fifthrider View Post
    ... it's based on Test Track at EPCOT. Also, it's based on a Pixar franchise ...
    ...or the nature of what an attraction is based on.
    The problem is not so much "based on", which however far you want to parse it all the attractions are "based on" something, somewhere. The problem is re-creating the movie narrative so much that it's practically a duplicate version of the story just in a different medium, with zero room for the imagination to deviate from that narrative.

    The originality being discussed is taking a theme, creating a scenario and leaving the participant to discover and imagine. The new spoon-fed attractions take a product, duplicate it in a medium for a viewer (no longer a participant) that leaves no room to imagine, discover, or even wonder. It has become a canon so confining that the imagination is being lacerated by the concertina wire of exact certitude.







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  12. #57

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    WDI, stop building attractions based on the latest blockbuster released. We want new and imaginative. No more Jack Sparrows, Nemos, or Monsters but we want stories like Phantom Manor where the story sells its self with out the DVD waiting in the gift shop at the end.
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  13. #58

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Walt did not invent Pirates, haunted houses, jungle safaris, president speeches or mountains. He got the idea from pop-culture and lore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Meville View Post

    Maybe not a direct representation, but these released movies are certainly of the same theme:

    No. I'm sorry, but you have to admit that there's a real difference between a ride that draws on the themes and imagery of previous stories, which is almost impossible not to do, and a ride that's explicitly part of a franchise. Yes, there were haunted house stories before the Haunted Mansion, and pirate stories before POTC, but neither of those rides used explicit characters or storylines to hem in the world they were creating. The Haunted Mansion wasn't the first to have faces in the wallpaper and bulging doors, but does that mean that they should have called it The Haunting: The Ride? Archetypes and imagery are important for storytelling - they allow viewers to rapidly orient themselves to what's being communicated, which is all the more important when a scene is going past you at two feet per second. A franchise ride, even if it's trying to tell a semi-original story set in that universe, inevitably uses the same characters, the same settings, and the same rules, which means that you're framing the experience within that world, rather than mentally exploring a new one. Franchise rides can be fun, and I think they have a strong role to play. The issue is that, as many on here have said, the balance has been tipped far beyond anything like parity.

    Oh, and as to the OP question - I'd like to see a third gate Star Wars attraction. I think it would be a good direction if they're trying to compete with Harry Potter, and a natural choice if they really are committed to making the new sequels be an equal part of the franchise. I'd also be fine with (slightly) expanding Star Tours's role in Tomorrowland. Marvel still doesn't feel right, but I don't know how much of that is just lack of familiarity, since they were never strongly connected before now. I think that doing the Iron Man thing in Innoventions is a good idea, or at least a better one than a lot of the alternatives that Disney actually would have the slightest interest in implementing, since Iron Man does at least pretend to be about future technologies in our own world, even if it's not exactly a physics textbook.

  14. #59

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sambo View Post
    The originality being discussed is taking a theme, creating a scenario and leaving the participant to discover and imagine. The new spoon-fed attractions take a product, duplicate it in a medium for a viewer (no longer a participant) that leaves no room to imagine, discover, or even wonder. It has become a canon so confining that the imagination is being lacerated by the concertina wire of exact certitude.
    Quote of the year!
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  15. #60

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    Re: What Disney Acquisition would you like to see more on the DLR in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by CDW View Post
    No. I'm sorry, but you have to admit that there's a real difference between a ride that draws on the themes and imagery of previous stories, which is almost impossible not to do, and a ride that's explicitly part of a franchise. Yes, there were haunted house stories before the Haunted Mansion, and pirate stories before POTC, but neither of those rides used explicit characters or storylines to hem in the world they were creating. The Haunted Mansion wasn't the first to have faces in the wallpaper and bulging doors, but does that mean that they should have called it The Haunting: The Ride? Archetypes and imagery are important for storytelling - they allow viewers to rapidly orient themselves to what's being communicated, which is all the more important when a scene is going past you at two feet per second. A franchise ride, even if it's trying to tell a semi-original story set in that universe, inevitably uses the same characters, the same settings, and the same rules, which means that you're framing the experience within that world, rather than mentally exploring a new one. Franchise rides can be fun, and I think they have a strong role to play. The issue is that, as many on here have said, the balance has been tipped far beyond anything like parity.
    So that brings me back to my last question:
    Would CARSland or RSR be better if it was simply an area themed with the american car culture of the 50's?

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