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  1. #136

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by JerrodDRagon View Post
    You understand that Disneyland could not be built in a year like it was right? This is because of new safety and workers law and while many are to help people, this also raises costs to try new things...
    Funny how all these new safety laws raise costs, yet don't make a dent in Disney's profits or subtract a dime from the ginormous pay packages of executives like Bob Iger.

    Safety laws don't make Disney not try new things. Disney's cheapness and creative laziness makes Disney not try new things.


    Quote Originally Posted by JerrodDRagon View Post
    ...hard to try something new when it could cost upwards to 50-100 million dollars
    Funny how a billion-dollar corporation like Disney can be rolling in record profits, but can't afford to bring their workplaces up to safety standards.

    Cheap is as cheap does, and Disney is notoriously cheap -- ask anyone in town who's done business with them. Better yet, ask the hard working CMs who are struggling to live on the crap wages Disney pays.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 04-14-2013 at 11:11 AM.
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  2. #137

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by micromind View Post
    Yes, it's true that construction workers die on the job. Nationwide, several of us bite the big one every day. And sometimes it's because of safety rules.
    Wow, safety rules can kill people . . . had no idea, death by a really bad paper cut? I guess in a freak accident you could blame safety guidelines, but as a whole they save lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by micromind View Post

    Here's an example; it's a little known fact that being suspended in a safety harness for any length of time is almost always fatal. You've got about 15 - 20 minutes. The reason is the harness cuts off circulation to you legs. The blood that's not circulating turns toxic fairly quickly. When the pressure is released, the toxic blood will stop you heart. You're dead.
    1. Safety harnesses are extremely painful if you've ever had the misfortune of being caught by one.

    2. The pathophysiological of crush syndrome is mostly due to traumatic rhabdomyolysis, i.e. the destruction of muscle tissue (simplistic to say that the blood becomes toxic but overall correct). Traumatic rhabdomyolysis causes the release of stuff like myoglobin which can box the kidneys. Reperfusion injury in crush syndrome, as opposed to RI in other conditions such as stroke, can be severe and cause hypovolemia, electrolyte disturbances, and intravascular coagulation which, of course, can be fatal. This is why when the blood reperfuses often times a smiling victim dies a "Rescue death". Rescue death occurs also in mountain climbing and those suspended from a chest harness for prolonged amounts of time.

    3. Redesign of construction safety harnesses is underway, making them more comfortable and less dangerous. Safety harnesses do save lives, despite the device being imperfect.

    4. Cute little story about changing lightbulbs and safety hats. But of course you realize it is so much easier to simply tell people to always wear a safety hat on the job. Some light fixtures are extremely heavy, such as the ones for flourescents . . . seems like a safety hat might be a good idea. The rules are sometimes onerous . . . but they weren't written by monkeys banging on typewriters, to start to "not respect" safety measure is foolish, in my opinion. Most safety rules are meant to be followed by millions to save the lives of dozens, just because one person complains that they don't understand the rules doesn't mean they aren't working. I don't think you can have safety rules that read, "Wear a construction hat when you feel like it because you're the pro." Opinions and assessments of risks vary wildly.
    Last edited by chesirecat; 04-14-2013 at 11:17 AM.

  3. #138

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostbuster626 View Post
    I see Iger and his incompetent crew have dragged us back to Eisner levels of "quality". What happened to the Walt Disney company of the 30s-early 90s? Is it impossible to get back to that level of quality and care for the parks because of all the layers accountants, MBA's, and wall street guys who only care about making the company (and most importantly themselves) a quick buck.
    It's simple--Since the beginning of the Eisner era in the '80s, Disney has reflected the trend in American industry to press worker wages downward and increase executive compensation. Overall American worker productivity is at an all-time high while wages have remained flat. With the introduction of the two-tier wage scale in the union contracts in the '80s, and the limit on full-time slots it is very hard for hourly employees at Disneyland to make a living wage. It's not much better for the bottom tier of managers, either.

    Now you have a work force who love where they work and the people they work with, but the company not-so-much. Many distrust management and are frustrated at the unresponsiveness to any concerns they raise. There is hostility between operations mangement and facilities and ongoing pissing matches (repeatedly flooded boats at Pirates, for example). Communication and cooperation across departments isn't anything like it was before Eisner.

    It's damn near impossible to get anything fixed with the bean counters strangling maintenance budgets. In Walt's day it was "fix now, ask questions later". The biggest solution to perceived safety issues is to put more pressure on attraction hosts--the number of senseles written safety violations being handed out is unbelievable. But it's easier (and cheaper--at least at the front end) to hand out safeties like trick-or-treat candy than actually to fix things.

    In short, the corporate culture is irrevocably changed, and for the worse. It's no stretch to imagine the suits at TDA living in denial about the need for safety fixes on these attractions. I must admit I'm a little surprised about the sudden application of seemingly new rules on old attractions. Just this week DOSH suddenly discovered that the two bridges in the town in Pirates have no railings, so cast members are now prohibited from using them. This means that they must go all the way around the show building to reach various evac points instead of taking this much-used shortcut. This is in addition to closing a ladder that linked boat storage to the burning town above, also necessitating a long detour.

    IMO, there's a lot gumming up the works internally at Disney and I have suspicions about DOSH's agenda here.

  4. #139

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by micromind View Post
    From what I've seen, education is always preferable to regulation. Always. Give me the facts, show me the hazards, and let me make my own decision. Then I'll be able to focus on actual safety, not blindly following a bunch of rules without understanding why they exist.
    Wile this sounds good in theory and may even work for you, many people don't care that much. They won't educate themselves on the options and potential results/outcomes based on what they choose, resulting in accidents to the workers and potentially bystanders, and in a sue happy country...

  5. #140

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Disney just needs to fix this stuff as soon as possible.

    As for all the discussion about the CMs risk, Disney needs to do what is best for their employees without cutting too many corners.

  6. #141

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Great. Another way for them to uglify our park. And the funny thing is, this park has survived nearly 60 years without being in compliance with any of this. Why now?


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  7. #142

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    The probability here is much more likely that Disney made the error as all of this stuff stems from two documented incidents.


    If, as you say, Disney is 100% at fault for not being up to code and it is DOSH's job to enforce those codes, it is not an abuse of power to enforce them. They are simply doing their job.

    It was an abuse of power for Disney to let it go for so long by basically saying, "if you want to work here you will do it under our conditiond. We aren't going to waste money making things any safer for our workers." The epitome of selfishness.
    It is abusing power to fine them over $200,000, but you are right Disney screwed up and now has to pay for it. It just infuriates me that depending on the inspector the fine can be a couple thousand dollars up to over a million.
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  8. #143

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Westsider View Post
    Mansion has a few drop-offs along the track, but it also has retractable handrails for CM use that were installed about 15 years ago. You don't see the handrails when you are on the ride normally, because they are retracted until they are needed after the ride closes for the night.
    Not any more. The retractable railing at the exit of the attic (overlooking the back of the graveyard) is permanently raised. There are no more retractable railings on HM.

  9. #144

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by CassiefRN View Post
    Wile this sounds good in theory and may even work for you, many people don't care that much. They won't educate themselves on the options and potential results/outcomes based on what they choose, resulting in accidents to the workers and potentially bystanders, and in a sue happy country...
    This is certainly true, but I cannot help but wonder how many otherwise intelligent people who would take education seriously have been dumbed down to the point of ignorance because of excessive regulation.

  10. #145

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Westsider View Post
    The 30 inch standard with no fall protection doesn't count if the drop is into water less than 4 feet deep.
    Thanks for the insight Westsider, but that really brings up more questions than answers.

    This page here is the specific code regarding the 30" elevated platform requirements, and the only mention of water on that page is with regard to cargo handling.

    Even if the water acted as a cushion, wouldn't they be required to install handrails for times when the water is drained?

    It seems that a lot of these rules are really open to interpretation and the discretion of the inspectors.

    Or it's entirely possible that Pirates is grandfathered and the inspector has no say over it, and it's simply easier to say "DOSH is A-OK with Pirates" than it is to say "We are not legally obligated to make this safe."

    Mansion has a few drop-offs along the track, but it also has retractable handrails for CM use that were installed about 15 years ago. You don't see the handrails when you are on the ride normally, because they are retracted until they are needed after the ride closes for the night.
    I admit that my understanding of all these codes and regulations is rather limited, but how is the retractable handrails at Mansion ok when the retractable handrails at Screamin' are now required to be extended at all times?

    Then again this could all point to Disney's own policies and procedures being more stringent than the actual law.

  11. #146

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    Wow, safety rules can kill people . . . had no idea, death by a really bad paper cut? I guess in a freak accident you could blame safety guidelines, but as a whole they save lives.


    But of course you realize it is so much easier to simply tell people to always wear a safety hat on the job.
    While it is indeed true that safety rules save lives, it is also true that if a rule causes even one death, then the rule has committed murder.

    Of course it's easier to tell people to blindly obey rules, that's the problem. Blind obedience stifles rational thought.

    If people were taught to assess the hazard and act appropriately, I think there'd be a lot fewer injuries and deaths. But we're taught to follow rules. No human is capable of remembering enough rules to guarantee total safety at all times.

    I'm not saying that there should be no rules, just cut back on the number of them, and allow common sense to overrule regulation.

  12. #147

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by micromind View Post
    From what I've seen, education is always preferable to regulation. Always. Give me the facts, show me the hazards, and let me make my own decision. Then I'll be able to focus on actual safety, not blindly following a bunch of rules without understanding why they exist.
    This. This right here.

  13. #148

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco21 View Post
    It is abusing power to fine them over $200,000, but you are right Disney screwed up and now has to pay for it. It just infuriates me that depending on the inspector the fine can be a couple thousand dollars up to over a million.
    I would not agree it's an abuse of power, fines are designed to punish, 200,000 some odd dollars wont break Disney's bank, but is enough to draw attention to the issue at hand.

    If the fine is too small its pointless, I would say 200,000 to a multi-billion dollars company is not all that large compared to Disney's revenue.

  14. #149

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    If employers provided safe working environments, we wouldn't need OSHA.
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  15. #150

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Disney says attraction closures were voluntary:

    Disneyland Resort Voluntarily Closes Some Rides After Cal/OSHA Citations « CBS Los Angeles

    Everything makes sense now. Carry about your business.

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