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  1. #301

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Safety is always first -but something's failing in the execution here. Government is supposed to say "Fix this, you have two weeks or we close and fine you. Disney is supposed to react when told to fix something, and have it ready for re-inspection by the allotted deadline.

    The system is failing, but I can't tell how - it looks like Cal-DOSH isn't allowing time for corrections, they just say "Here's the problem, Pay the Fine and then fix it - or we fine you more."

    And Disney may be over-reacting and closing the ride at the first 'this is a warning' point when they aren't bring ordered to yet, in order to make the corrections and re-train the CM's on the new work or evacuation processes. Which might be the absolute best thing for Worker Safety - but it's a convenient dodge to shuffle the CM's to other rides & cut payroll for the week - Oh, and it inconveniences the Guests too.

    And perplexes those of us watching from the Peanut Gallery as to what the heck is going on.

    If you have unsafe spots that are being corrected you flag them, and anyone working backstage near that drop has to wear their Fall Protection harness and 'clip in' with their safety line as they work in that spot or pass by it. Or go take the other staircase/ladder to get to the upper reaches. Then it's safe and they can stay open too.

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  2. #302

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman View Post
    And Disney may be over-reacting and closing the ride at the first 'this is a warning' point when they aren't bring ordered to yet, in order to make the corrections and re-train the CM's on the new work or evacuation processes. Which might be the absolute best thing for Worker Safety - but it's a convenient dodge to shuffle the CM's to other rides & cut payroll for the week - Oh, and it inconveniences the Guests too.
    Every indication is that Disney decided to close the attractions voluntarily for the repairs to be made. DOSH did not request them to be closed. It may not make much sense, but I don't see much alternative for Disney in this case. If they were cited or fined, but allowed to keep operating, they would be opening themselves up to massive lawsuits from both guests and employees who would cry foul at ANY perceived safety issue.

    I'm sure there is someone out there already planning a lawsuit over the seats on the Matterhorn. keeping a ride publically labeled as unsafe, would just add more fuel to the fire, regardless of whether it was safe or not.

  3. #303

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Despite the fact that the contractor was the one who decided to hook up to an unsafe anchorage, and never questioned it, everyone else is made to accept responsibility for it except him [although it should be noted his company has recently been fined for the same incident].

    Transference of liability. It is up to the company that contracts the labor to ensure that the company they hire follows all proper procedures. It's in the OSHA guidelines, plain as day. Even if it were the case of the contractor assuming liability for its employees, the work is still being performed on Disney property.

    OSHA 1926.16, Subparts A, B, C and D.

    From Part A:
    A). In no case shall the prime contractor be relieved of overall responsibility for compliance with the requirements of this part for all work to be performed under the contract.
    Part B:
    By contracting for full performance of a contract subject to section 107 of the Act, the prime contractor assumes all obligations prescribed as employer obligations under the standards contained in this part, whether or not he subcontracts any part of the work.
    Part C:
    With respect to subcontracted work, the prime contractor and any subcontractor or subcontractors shall be deemed to have joint responsibility.
    Part D:
    Where joint responsibility exists, both the prime contractor and his subcontractor or subcontractors, regardless of tier, shall be considered subject to the enforcement provisions of the Act.

    Last edited by Exprmnt626; 04-21-2013 at 02:19 AM.
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  4. #304

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    I'm surprised they haven't closed Pirates Lair yet, as there are many rocks and drops that are over 30 inches. Or the Disneyland Railroad, or the Castle Drawbridge. Or do the same safety regulations not apply to the guests?




    The regulations in question are in place to protect the employees and employer. Nothing in the OSHA or DOSH standards makes reference to non-workers.
    Last edited by Exprmnt626; 04-21-2013 at 02:20 AM.
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  5. #305

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Westsider View Post
    OSHA is DOSH. DOSH is the correct acronym, although some folks still say "Cal-OSHA". They address this on their website. Division of Occupational Safety and Health
    OSHA is not DOSH. OSHA is the governing body in D.C., DOSH is California's governing body.
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  6. #306

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Exprmnt626 View Post
    Transference of liability. It is up to the company that contracts the labor to ensure that the company they hire follows all proper procedures.
    Exactly. There is no sense of personal responsibility built into the law. I feel very uncomfortable about that. Essentially employees have less motivation to be safe, because if anything should happen, it will always be the employers fault no matter what.

    The regulations in question are in place to protect the employees and employer. Nothing in the OSHA or DOSH standards makes reference to non-workers.
    So who is safer at Disneyland, the employees or the guests?

  7. #307

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    According to this article, DOSH also fined the contractor for violating safety laws/procedures in the Space Mountain incident, so they do have some liability and responsibility here:

    Disney Contractor Fined $61,000 After Worker Was Hurt on Space Mountain | NBC Southern California

  8. #308

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Exprmnt626 View Post
    Despite the fact that the contractor was the one who decided to hook up to an unsafe anchorage, and never questioned it, everyone else is made to accept responsibility for it except him [although it should be noted his company has recently been fined for the same incident].

    Transference of liability. It is up to the company that contracts the labor to ensure that the company they hire follows all proper procedures. It's in the OSHA guidelines, plain as day. Even if it were the case of the contractor assuming liability for its employees, the work is still being performed on Disney property.

    OSHA 1926.16, Subparts A, B, C and D.

    From Part A:


    Part B:


    Part C:


    Part D:
    From what I understand, this has been referred to as "multi-employer madness". If a host entity subcontracts work and the subcontractor violates Cal/OSHA, the host employer is also liable even if the violation is outside of the expertise of the host company. In other words, if you subcontract work, you'd better know what their regulations are too. This is a CA regulation over and above federal law.

    I'm unsure if this is why Disney was fined.

    Anyway, the following is general discussion, not towards you:

    Without question, if a law/regulation is in place, you're responsible if you break it/violate it. But that doesn't inherently make it right or practical. Those who are "against" Cal/OSHA aren't necessarily against regulations, they're for smart, sensible regulation.

    A friend of mine just purchased a popular food franchise and opened a location. He went to their training, and the very first thing they said was, "No one here is opening in California, right?" My buddy sheepishly raised his hand. The guy said, "Hmmm. Well, we can work with it, I suppose. We don't recommend it but...you're not in LA County, are you?" My friend replied, "Yes." The corporate guy said, "Alright. We'll talk after."

    After the initial meeting, the corporate guy pulled my friend aside and tried to convince him to open outside of California. So when we're criticizing Cal/OSHA, we're coming from the perspective that the regulatory process in California is so strict that businesses are actively trying not to open here. That is insane.

    Imagine a scenario where a $5 part would ensure that Disney would keep Space Mountain safe for all employees. The likelihood of death is low, so maybe it'll save one or two lives over the next 50 years.

    Now imagine that part costs $10 billion. Is it still worth it? That's the question were asking here. Besides, there's a compelling argument to be made that market forces on workplace safety dwarf Cal/OSHA incentives...unless Cal/OSHA starts raising the fines to giant levels.

  9. #309

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    After the initial meeting, the corporate guy pulled my friend aside and tried to convince him to open outside of California. So when we're criticizing Cal/OSHA, we're coming from the perspective that the regulatory process in California is so strict that businesses are actively trying not to open here. That is insane.
    I can completely relate. I have a business. For a small aspect of my work, there is a very dangerous aspect. There are a lot of regulations involved in it. I have employees trained, we have procedures in place, I have supplied equipment well above the minimum required, I have everything made as safe as possible, as long as my employees follow the procedures. Despite this, twice I have had the SAME employee try to skip steps because it was EASIER for him. And if DOSH was there, it is not the EMPLOYEE who would be fined, but me and the business. I have written him up each time I have caught him, and now have removed him from this aspect of the job (which means fewer hours for him), but is it really fair that if DOSH walked in and found this, it would be me taking the $5k hit? We aren't a huge business, so $5k would hurt. The first time, I specifically asked what would happen, and they explained to me, AND offered to come explain to the employee, but that ultimately, even if he is doing it behind my back, it is still my fault. (Thus, I can't trust him, so he doesn't get this job any more.)
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  10. #310

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Exprmnt626 View Post
    Despite the fact that the contractor was the one who decided to hook up to an unsafe anchorage, and never questioned it, everyone else is made to accept responsibility for it except him [although it should be noted his company has recently been fined for the same incident].

    Transference of liability. It is up to the company that contracts the labor to ensure that the company they hire follows all proper procedures. It's in the OSHA guidelines, plain as day. Even if it were the case of the contractor assuming liability for its employees, the work is still being performed on Disney property.
    But the problem with this was that there are no proper anchorage points . . . meaning the company would be put in the embarassing situation of either telling Disney they can't do the job, (Disney would just hire somebody else), or try to work with what they've got.

  11. #311

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Malcon10t View Post
    I can completely relate. I have a business. For a small aspect of my work, there is a very dangerous aspect. There are a lot of regulations involved in it. I have employees trained, we have procedures in place, I have supplied equipment well above the minimum required, I have everything made as safe as possible, as long as my employees follow the procedures. Despite this, twice I have had the SAME employee try to skip steps because it was EASIER for him. And if DOSH was there, it is not the EMPLOYEE who would be fined, but me and the business. I have written him up each time I have caught him, and now have removed him from this aspect of the job (which means fewer hours for him), but is it really fair that if DOSH walked in and found this, it would be me taking the $5k hit? We aren't a huge business, so $5k would hurt. The first time, I specifically asked what would happen, and they explained to me, AND offered to come explain to the employee, but that ultimately, even if he is doing it behind my back, it is still my fault. (Thus, I can't trust him, so he doesn't get this job any more.)

    Not to be crass . . . but this kinda proves that the system works. It sounds as if the employer was not responsible, then they wouldn't care what some knuckle head employee does, even though they know it is wrong as they know they couldn't be held responsible. As the system is, you were forced to remove this employee who had problems following procedures from doing said dangerous work . . . as a taxpayer and somebody who pays insurance premiums, I'm glad I won't have to pay for an expensive injury that could have been prevented. I'm probably happy there are big fines to help prevent such accidents.
    Last edited by chesirecat; 04-22-2013 at 08:32 PM.

  12. #312

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    According to this article, DOSH also fined the contractor for violating safety laws/procedures in the Space Mountain incident, so they do have some liability and responsibility here:

    Disney Contractor Fined $61,000 After Worker Was Hurt on Space Mountain | NBC Southern California
    The article says that the construction worker fell and broke bones, possibly requiring an orthopaedic surgeon and lengthy hospital stay that could well cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Who pays for this? Taxpayers/healthcare insurance buyers if the guy is uninsured, or otherwise everybody's premiums go up.

    Society as a whole doesn't have to tolerate injuries that could have been prevented, this could have as Space Mountain doesn't have proper anchorage points. Somebody needs to tell Disney to "get real" and pay somebody $10,000, or whatever, to cement in anchorage points around Space so taxpayers don't have to pay *hundreds of thousands* of dollars for the next injury. The only way to make big corporations like Disney do what is right is with fines . . . and even then they didn't fix Space in a timely manner, i.e. less than six months.

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman View Post
    - it looks like Cal-DOSH isn't allowing time for corrections, they just say "Here's the problem, Pay the Fine and then fix it - or we fine you more."
    Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Plenty of big corporations do CYA and have Risk Management departments which look at safety issues and correct them before there is an issue.

    Has nobody in California heard of Risk Management?!? People want OSHA to wipe their booty and spoon feed them directions about how to improve safety? Space has had a lot of work over the years, paint jobs, cleanings . . . can't believe that a sub-contractor or anybody else never asked Disney about the lack of anchorage points. Even if nobody brought it up, Disney should have a risk management department which evaluates different safety aspects of attractions . . . OSHA did bring it up and they didn't fix it. Just shows a lot of folks are out to lunch!

    In my line of work, we have to follow OSHA guidelines to the letter, and we get regular reviews and evaluations and we routinely drill on OSHA rules and follow them on a daily basis. Not doing this means an unsafe work environment and problems with OSHA. It is almost inconceivable that somebody would bad mouth OSHA and complain about the rules and regs . . . it sounds like a business owner with a death wish for their business who doesn't care if OSHA shut them down.

    Before this thread haven't heard anybody bad mouth OSHA as in my state (outside CA) we have a healthy fear/respect of OSHA. It would be like complaining that a lot of stop signs aren't needed, and that it is OK to go through a red light if nobody is close to the intersection (and that the driver should decide when to follow stop lights) and that stop light rules don't make sense and that it is a burden to drive on the right hand side of the road. Really, the whining makes me think that businesses in CA, from Disneyland, on downwards are run by a lot of folks who don't get the big picture.
    Last edited by chesirecat; 04-22-2013 at 08:30 PM.

  14. #314

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    The article says that the construction worker fell and broke bones, possibly requiring an orthopaedic surgeon and lengthy hospital stay that could well cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Who pays for this? Taxpayers/healthcare insurance buyers if the guy is uninsured, or otherwise everybody's premiums go up.

    Society as a whole doesn't have to tolerate injuries that could have been prevented, this could have as Space Mountain doesn't have proper anchorage points. Somebody needs to tell Disney to "get real" and pay somebody $10,000, or whatever, to cement in anchorage points around Space so taxpayers don't have to pay *hundreds of thousands* of dollars for the next injury. The only way to make big corporations like Disney do what is right is with fines . . . and even then they didn't fix Space in a timely manner, i.e. less than six months.
    Well yes, that is a given. It was Disney's responsibility to have the proper tie-off points and safety measures and to make sure they were followed. What the fine to HSG is saying is that the contractor should have also been aware of proper safety measures and not asked their employees to work in unsafe conditions. It's much less than what is being levied against Disney so it's clear that DOSH is holding Disney more responsible overall.

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Well yes, that is a given. It was Disney's responsibility to have the proper tie-off points and safety measures and to make sure they were followed. What the fine to HSG is saying is that the contractor should have also been aware of proper safety measures and not asked their employees to work in unsafe conditions. It's much less than what is being levied against Disney so it's clear that DOSH is holding Disney more responsible overall.
    There should be layers of safety in any system. If Disney had anchorage points available, then maybe the workers would have used them without being babysat by their supervisors, if the subcontractors had notified Disney of the problem (maybe they were afraid of losing some work, but it sounds like pretty basic, relatively inexpensive stuff like cleaning), then maybe some anchorage points would have been installed. You can see the folks asking to do the job are at a disadvantage as they want work and don't want to lose work to somebody else who is willing to overlook an unsafe work environment. So, yes, it is 100% logical that the folks with the power, Disney, be fined more heavily as they own Space and should have had an inkling that there were safety issues.

    Even if they didn't, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

    Of course all of this is kinda academic at this point.

    It's like in National Treasure when the Declaration of Independence is stolen and Harvey Keitel's character catches Nicholas Cage he tells him, "Someone's got to go to prison, Ben."

    A guy fell and broke bones. Fact. Somebody has to be heavily fined if there are safety violations, pure and simple.

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