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  1. #316

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    It is interesting that with all of the complaints leveled against OSHA/DOSH . . . DLR seems to anecdotally, have a much worse history of accidents than WDW given WDW has more hotels and theme parks.

    Off the top of my head: People Mover deaths decades ago, the Columbia death, the Big Thunder Mountain death, the accidents on Space Mountain.

    I wonder if part of the reason why Alice's exterior is still "temporary" scaffolding years later is sort of a permanent display meant to serve as a visual reminder of OSHA's supposedly onerous policies. Also, you have Disney blaming the lack of a People Mover replacement on OSHA rules. Seems like something could be built which would satisfy OSHA.

    Check out wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inciden...neyland_Resort

    and this excerpt:


    • On April 22, 2003, a 36-year old stage technician fell 60 feet from a catwalk in the Hyperion Theater, prompting an investigation by the California Occupational Safety and Health Administration (Cal/OSHA). The victim did not regain consciousness following the incident and died on May 18, 2003.[3] In October 2003, Cal/OSHA fined the Disneyland Resort $18,350 for safety violations related to the technician's death.[4]



    No wonder they are concerned about issues with castmembers falling . . .
    Last edited by chesirecat; 04-22-2013 at 08:56 PM.

  2. #317

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    Not to be crass . . . but this kinda proves that the system works. It sounds as if the employer was not responsible, then they wouldn't care what some knuckle head employee does, even though they know it is wrong as they know they couldn't be held responsible. As the system is, you were forced to remove this employee who had problems following procedures from doing said dangerous work . . . as a taxpayer and somebody who pays insurance premiums, I'm glad I won't have to pay for an expensive injury that could have been prevented. I'm probably happy there are big fines to help prevent such accidents.
    There are plenty of reasons why an employer doesn't want their employees to die. If you have people falling into machines and getting chopped up in little pieces--against regulations or not--employees won't want to work for you.

    But on top of that, there are other reasons. Let's look nationally. OSHA fines in 2002 (last I could find complete data) totaled $149 million. However, workers comp premiums totaled $26 billion. Further, wage premiums for risky activities totaled $245 billion (Riskier jobs tend to pay much more. The safer you make the job, the less you have to pay--or the smaller the wage premium is.). In other words, monetary market incentives for safety dwarf legal incentives, which dwarf regulatory incentives (fines). Financially, at least, OSHA fines are nothing compared to other costs related to employee safety.

    So to say OSHA or Cal/OSHA regs and enforcement are what's standing between safe workers and a rash of dead workers is a bit of a distortion.

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    It is interesting that with all of the complaints leveled against OSHA/DOSH . . . DLR seems to anecdotally, have a much worse history of accidents than WDW given WDW has more hotels and theme parks.

    Off the top of my head: People Mover deaths decades ago, the Columbia death, the Big Thunder Mountain death, the accidents on Space Mountain.

    I wonder if part of the reason why Alice's exterior is still "temporary" scaffolding years later is sort of a permanent display meant to serve as a visual reminder of OSHA's supposedly onerous policies. Also, you have Disney blaming the lack of a People Mover replacement on OSHA rules. Seems like something could be built which would satisfy OSHA.

    Check out wiki: Incidents at Disneyland Resort - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    and this excerpt:


    • On April 22, 2003, a 36-year old stage technician fell 60 feet from a catwalk in the Hyperion Theater, prompting an investigation by the California Occupational Safety and Health Administration (Cal/OSHA). The victim did not regain consciousness following the incident and died on May 18, 2003.[3] In October 2003, Cal/OSHA fined the Disneyland Resort $18,350 for safety violations related to the technician's death.[4]



    No wonder they are concerned about issues with castmembers falling . . .
    Not picking on you by quoting you twice :-D but the second cited source (endnote 4) says the biggest problem/violation was that the employee was wearing a harness, yet it wasn't attached to anything. That sounds a lot like the employee could have known the procedures, known what to do, Disney had them in place, and the employee chose not to do it.

    I'd imagine even those who are in favor of Cal/OSHA being as powerful as "necessary" can agree there is a difference between a company turning a blind eye and a company having everything in place and an employee willfully disregarding the procedure. Yet, in the eyes of authorities, there's no distinction.

  3. #318

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    I'd imagine even those who are in favor of Cal/OSHA being as powerful as "necessary" can agree there is a difference between a company turning a blind eye and a company having everything in place and an employee willfully disregarding the procedure. Yet, in the eyes of authorities, there's no distinction.
    Yes. It purposefully places the employers in the position of liability. For every worker who flouts the rules, there are going to be just as many (if not more) employers would use that loophole to just charge the employee with negligence.
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  4. #319

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Exprmnt626 View Post
    Yes. It purposefully places the employers in the position of liability. For every worker who flouts the rules, there are going to be just as many (if not more) employers would use that loophole to just charge the employee with negligence.
    There are too many other factors to say this. It virtually ignores that other factors influence employer decisions on safety. There will always be situations where no matter what laws and enforcement is in place, injuries and deaths will happen. Too little and some employers may turn a blind eye for whatever reason. Too many you definitely stifle productivity, innovation, and employment. Besides, regulatory fines, as I said, are dwarfed by other incentives to make a workplace safe.

    No one seems to want to answer my hypothetical though. If a new device could save the life of an employee at Space Mountain in every situation and it cost $500, should CA make Disney buy and use it? Most people would probably answer yes. However, what if it cost $5 billion? Then it becomes murky. Would you say Disney should be forced to buy the $5 billion device that ensures safety? A lot of things would be eliminated if they decided to do it. We're talking new rides, all kinds of stuff would be put off. Disney might even find it more feasible to close Space Mountain permanently instead of complying. Obviously it's an extreme example, but it exposes the principle--at what point do we draw the line?

    We're already at a point where a 30" drop must either have a safety handrail, the employee must use a harness, or the platform must be 6 feet wide. If you can get hurt at 2.5 feet, you might get hurt at 1.5 feet. You'd have even less of a chance of getting hurt if you weren't allowed to walk on any raised surface. You might also fall just walking, so a foam suit that absorbs impact would prevent that. That probably sounds absurd, but man...isn't 30 inches absurd too?

    As far as the employee/employer thing, what is OSHA or Cal/OSHA investigating if they aren't determining what happened? Wouldn't they, in most cases, be able to determine if the employer had proper safeguards and training in place and the employee ignored them?

  5. #320

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    With Space closed hopefully they can work on re-painting the queue and fix the damaged walls.

  6. #321

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    No one seems to want to answer my hypothetical though. If a new device could save the life of an employee at Space Mountain in every situation and it cost $500, should CA make Disney buy and use it? Most people would probably answer yes. However, what if it cost $5 billion? Then it becomes murky. Would you say Disney should be forced to buy the $5 billion device that ensures safety? A lot of things would be eliminated if they decided to do it. We're talking new rides, all kinds of stuff would be put off. Disney might even find it more feasible to close Space Mountain permanently instead of complying. Obviously it's an extreme example, but it exposes the principle--at what point do we draw the line?
    Ah, but the DOSH standards do not promote one product to the exclusivity of others. The regulations state the miminum required to meet said standard, but do not require the purchase of something specific to deem it adequate.

    To fully answer the hypothetical question, however: If there were devices that 100% guaranteed the performance of duties required and ensured 100% worker safety, it would behoove the company in question to purchase them. Over a long enough timeline the reduction in workers' compensation claims and lost workday fines would be enough to convince a company with a big enough bankroll to pull the trigger.
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  7. #322

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Exprmnt626 View Post
    Ah, but the DOSH standards do not promote one product to the exclusivity of others. The regulations state the miminum required to meet said standard, but do not require the purchase of something specific to deem it adequate.

    To fully answer the hypothetical question, however: If there were devices that 100% guaranteed the performance of duties required and ensured 100% worker safety, it would behoove the company in question to purchase them. Over a long enough timeline the reduction in workers' compensation claims and lost workday fines would be enough to convince a company with a big enough bankroll to pull the trigger.
    Not the question, though. The question is about at what cost? At what point does it become too much? Take my example, apply it to a car. If the trucking industry could add a $5 part on each big rig to save 1 life per year, I'd guess you'd agree this should be enforced. But what if that part costs $1 million per truck? Should it be enforced then?

  8. #323

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    Not the question, though. The question is about at what cost? At what point does it become too much? Take my example, apply it to a car. If the trucking industry could add a $5 part on each big rig to save 1 life per year, I'd guess you'd agree this should be enforced. But what if that part costs $1 million per truck? Should it be enforced then?
    What if that $1 part made the truck 5% bigger and reduced fuel economy by 10%?

    The line for safety's sake is too easily moved. A 6" curb can be as deadly as a 30" drop. There are just too many situations that "could" result in injury that are arbitrarily being inflicted on everyone that common sense should trump. Since no one can protect everyone from every situation, there needs to be some sort of line set that covers those situations that have a more likely chance of happening.

    Just as they look to provide accommodations for a population standard (95 percentile), the standard for safety should cover those areas where a situation is based on the level of injury from a potential accident (from a bruised knee to death) and the chances of a person taking normal precautions being able to avoid such injury. Obviously, there are situations where the height of a fall will result in major injury. But the potential of a 30" fall could result in the same injury as a misstep off a 6" curb.

    I appreciate the attention to safety that Disney takes. They have historically always approached safety at about 10% above those the standards even set by the manufacturers of the attractions they operate. But, at times i get the feeling that the Disney safety personnel just jump on situations in order to maintain job security. The same probably goes for DOSH.

  9. #324

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    DOSH is different than CAL OSHA. The former oversees the safety of the guests, the latter the safety of the employees. As I recall the original formation of DOSH, it was supposed to be self sustaining, in other words not reliant upon funding from Sacramento. It gets its operating funds from the yearly licensing fees that all operators of amusement rides must pay each year. They also get funds from the fines they issue for violations.

  10. #325

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    Not the question, though. The question is about at what cost? At what point does it become too much? Take my example, apply it to a car. If the trucking industry could add a $5 part on each big rig to save 1 life per year, I'd guess you'd agree this should be enforced. But what if that part costs $1 million per truck? Should it be enforced then?
    You gotta be kidding, your question has an obvious answer hence it is rhetorical. This whole paying $1 million or $1 billion to save a life is something that high school students sit around and talk about during the lunch hour. You underestimate the intelligence of probably everybody on this board by demanding people answer your question . . . I have to think you know this and you're joking or trolling.

  11. #326

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by DLFan1995 View Post
    A 6" curb can be as deadly as a 30" drop. There are just too many situations that "could" result in injury that are arbitrarily being inflicted on everyone that common sense should trump. Since no one can protect everyone from every situation, there needs to be some sort of line set that covers those situations that have a more likely chance of happening.

    Just as they look to provide accommodations for a population standard (95 percentile), the standard for safety should cover those areas where a situation is based on the level of injury from a potential accident (from a bruised knee to death) and the chances of a person taking normal precautions being able to avoid such injury. Obviously, there are situations where the height of a fall will result in major injury. But the potential of a 30" fall could result in the same injury as a misstep off a 6" curb.
    Obviously, a fall from 30" is on average more dangerous than a "fall" from six inches. From the higher height I would think that it is just common sense that you could twist an ankle or even break a bone if you're carrying heavy equipment, of course stuff can happen at 6 inches, but they choose 30" for a reason. That's 30" and above, meaning 3 feet, 4 feet, 5 feet . . . they gotta drawn the line somewhere. And we're not always talking about "death", but a variety of issues.

    You have conclude on your own, (as you re-invent the wheel), that there needs to be a "line". Well bravo . . . and the OSHA folks have set the line at 30". Makes sense to me as that cover 3 feet, 4 feet, 5 feet and on up. If you're carrying 50 lbs of equipment and you fall from about 3 feet you can have a bad accident, as you could from 30", when you get down to 12" common sense says there is less risk . . . and OSHA DOES use data, mechanism of injury, force of impact, when deciding where the line is.

    How would the average Joe know where to drawn the line?

  12. #327

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    If you can get hurt at 2.5 feet, you might get hurt at 1.5 feet. You'd have even less of a chance of getting hurt if you weren't allowed to walk on any raised surface.
    There is a logical fallacy here wrapped in a noodle of a lack of general knowledge of physics and common sense. A fall at 10 feet is on average worse than a fall at 1.5 feet, heck, a fall at 3 feet when you're carrying a freezer is brutal compared to a fall at 1.5 feet. It involves the gravitational acceleration constant and concepts like mass which you should have learned somewhere along the line. OSHA uses actuarial like science when they look at the % of falls from such and such a height that result in a certain type of injury, they've probably got tons of graphs and they use data to decide where to draw the line.

    The logical fallacy is that while fatal accidents at 1.5 feet are much less common, you decide to say, in essence, that because there are fatalities at 1.5 feet then a couple feet higher doesn't mean much, so wrong when you're carrying a lot of weight . . . like construction workers do all the time.

    Based on tons of data there is a continuum of risk you could resolve to the inches if you had enough data, you have *less* of a chance of getting hurt at a fall at 1.5 feet versus 2.5 feet.

  13. #328

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by AB Born View Post
    With Space closed hopefully they can work on re-painting the queue and fix the damaged walls.
    Hope springs eternal...it would be nice if they used that downtime to do a little painting and polishing here and there while they are installing the proper safety measures. And since painting the queue doesn't involve climbing to great heights it should be safe enough to do right now.

  14. #329

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    You gotta be kidding, your question has an obvious answer hence it is rhetorical. This whole paying $1 million or $1 billion to save a life is something that high school students sit around and talk about during the lunch hour. You underestimate the intelligence of probably everybody on this board by demanding people answer your question . . . I have to think you know this and you're joking or trolling.
    I think this is a very legitimate question.

    There's no doubt in my mind that just about any corporation, especially one as greedy as TDC, would compare the $$$ of employee injury or death vs. $$$ of safety equipment if there were no regulations.

    It's actually done on most large construction jobs. Every big job is going to have injuries, maybe even a death or two. The cost of this is factored into the total cost of the project. The cost of OSHA fines is factored in as well. Also figured in is the cost of going over the projected completion date, and usually, the extra $$$ in getting it done early.

    Corporations don't care about people, money is just about the only issue.

    Some projects, like the City Cemeter......errrrr...City Center in Vegas become so focused on a timetable that far more guys get hurt of killed than usual. But the owners/contractors don't care; they see $$$, not much else.

    I suspect that DL has pretty much the same attitude, why invest anything into the safety of our employees?

    Now they have no choice.

  15. #330

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by micromind View Post
    I think this is a very legitimate question.
    It was a rhetorical question of a $5 part to fix a truck to save a life per year or a billion dollars for a part to save a life per year. And the poster kept asking folks to answer this "question" . . . I think we all "get" what the poster is talking about as we all probably have experience with this issue in some way or another.

    Do we really need to answer a rhetorical question:

    Quote Originally Posted by loungefly97 View Post
    No one seems to want to answer my hypothetical though. If a new device could save the life of an employee at Space Mountain in every situation and it cost $500, should CA make Disney buy and use it? Most people would probably answer yes. However, what if it cost $5 billion? Then it becomes murky.
    There is always a money aspect with any safety upgrade and the cost of compliance.

    Hospitals also look at the "number needed to test" to save a life and decide if resources are being spent properly. If a test saves one life for 1,000 patients screened, versus a test that saves one life per 10,000 patients screened. It's not that hospitals/doctors are uncaring institutions, but that $ has to go where it will do the most help. If a diagnostic test can detect a rare type of cancer when it can be cured, but if you have to test 500,000 people a year to save one life . . . then this test will not be paid for by anybody.

    I would agree that OSHA and other public safety entities are there to look out for the workers as you pointed out, quite correctly, that big corporations due to a focus on the bottom-line can, to a certain extent, overlook the human cost.

    But seriously . . . we're talking about some anchorage points and some hand-railings, these aren't expensive additions. In the case of Soarin' it seems that OSHA is perfectly happy to work with Disney and not hold them to the letter of the law. Even the $200,000 fine is much for Disney, and the medical bills were quite possibly higher . . .
    Last edited by chesirecat; 04-24-2013 at 09:12 PM.

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