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  1. #331

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Your failure to terminate the employee that willfully and intentionally violated safety regulations for his personal convenience, shows exactly why the government needs to fine the employer - YOU. You have no excuse and deserve to be fined for the second incident for allowing your employee to violate the same safety regulations that protect all of us and your only punishment after that second offense is to transfer the employee and cut his hours. You are part of the poor safety environment that endangers workers and the public. Fire the dangerous employee!

  2. #332

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Without safety regulations, this happens:

    USA TODAY

  3. #333

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadrunner View Post
    Without safety regulations, this happens:

    USA TODAY
    No one was saying that there should be no regulations on buildings but in this case Disney Over-reacted to an updated safety procedures and in order to for them at this point to satisfy all new requirements they would have to completely rip out the track and replace it...almost like what their doing to BTMt.
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  4. #334

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by brianpinsky View Post
    No one was saying that there should be no regulations on buildings but in this case Disney Over-reacted to an updated safety procedures and in order to for them at this point to satisfy all new requirements they would have to completely rip out the track and replace it...almost like what their doing to BTMt.
    I think that the vast majority of people on the board aren't able to make an informed decision of whether Space Mountain's evacuation platforms are safe as most people have no idea what they look like, what a safe evacuation platform looks like and couldn't describe what changes have been made to safety procedures and why.

  5. #335

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    There is a logical fallacy here wrapped in a noodle of a lack of general knowledge of physics and common sense. A fall at 10 feet is on average worse than a fall at 1.5 feet, heck, a fall at 3 feet when you're carrying a freezer is brutal compared to a fall at 1.5 feet. It involves the gravitational acceleration constant and concepts like mass which you should have learned somewhere along the line. OSHA uses actuarial like science when they look at the % of falls from such and such a height that result in a certain type of injury, they've probably got tons of graphs and they use data to decide where to draw the line.

    The logical fallacy is that while fatal accidents at 1.5 feet are much less common, you decide to say, in essence, that because there are fatalities at 1.5 feet then a couple feet higher doesn't mean much, so wrong when you're carrying a lot of weight . . . like construction workers do all the time.

    Based on tons of data there is a continuum of risk you could resolve to the inches if you had enough data, you have *less* of a chance of getting hurt at a fall at 1.5 feet versus 2.5 feet.
    Construction workers don't normally carry a lot of heavy weight in dangerous locations. I would think that the chances of injury from a 6" misstep is more likely than a fall from 30" as people are more likely to be more careful as the danger increases. While the injury from a higher point will likely be more severe, that isn't always the case.

    A 6" misstep is more likely than a three foot fall while carrying a freezer. Having a freezer fall on you can still kill you, even if just falling over after a small misstep.

    Those people who fail to take care when in riskier situations will be more likely to get injured (even in less risky situations) whether they are "protected" or not. And depending on "protection" can be a hazard in itself. Even with safety equipment, one should be aware of the potential hazard if such equipment failed (as the case with the Space Mountain cleaner).

  6. #336

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by DLFan1995 View Post
    Construction workers don't normally carry a lot of heavy weight in dangerous locations. I would think that the chances of injury from a 6" misstep is more likely than a fall from 30" as people are more likely to be more careful as the danger increases. While the injury from a higher point will likely be more severe, that isn't always the case.

    A 6" misstep is more likely than a three foot fall while carrying a freezer. Having a freezer fall on you can still kill you, even if just falling over after a small misstep.

    Those people who fail to take care when in riskier situations will be more likely to get injured (even in less risky situations) whether they are "protected" or not. And depending on "protection" can be a hazard in itself. Even with safety equipment, one should be aware of the potential hazard if such equipment failed (as the case with the Space Mountain cleaner).
    1. Doesn't matter if construction workers don't normally carry heavy weight, that they do with even modest frequency means you have to protect against the possibility of a dangerous fall.

    2. Common sense says that a fall from 30" would be likely to be more dangerous than a fall from 6", i.e. more severe injuries.

    It's kinda out there to say that because a fall from 6" can very rarely be more severe, that we shouldn't draw the line at 30" . . .

    Obviously when carrying a freezer, you try to be as careful as possible, BUT a fall from 6" IS NOT AS LIKELY TO HURT YOU as a fall from 30", despite rare cases.

  7. #337

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    I'm not trolling anyone. It's actually a pretty famous Milton Friedman hypothetical. You can't put an infinite amount of value on a human life. Most people would be fine if it cost Disney $5 to potentially save a few lives over the next several decades. But all of a sudden we balk if it were to cost $1 billion. So there's really no principle to the argument--there's a vague, "reasonable" amount people are willing to put on human life, and everyone's "reasonable" would be different.

    The basic argument I'm hearing is that unless Disney follows every single piece of regulation that DOSHA or CalOSHA--whichever it is--imposes on them, the Disneyland Resort would become a death trap for employees. And if you think that's hyperbole, someone just posted a link to the Bangladesh story.

    The problem with the Bangladesh story is you have to have an economy that can afford to comply with regulations, and you must not have political corruption which renders regulations moot. You can have all the regulations you want in, for example, Mexico, but if you don't have the resources or government to enforce them, then they might as well not exist.

    It costs resources to comply with regulations, and those resources must come from somewhere. Resources should be used to maximize life and health all around, not just concentrate it in one area. The largest risk to one's health is poverty. Is it worth it to coerce Disney to follow large and looming regulations on potential health risks if the resources needed to then come from employee layoffs and cut hours, driving some employees into or further into poverty. what if that causes shift lengths to increase, raising the likelihood of dangerous mistakes due to fatigue? What if the resources came from on-site medical care, putting guests in a situation of a potential risk? I know it sounds like a game of "what if," but the point is serious. Since resources must come from somewhere, the unseen costs of shifting them must be analyzed.

    Is there potential to get hurt falling 30"? Of course there is. Is making the handrail, harness, or wider platform the best use of resources to maximize the safety of the employees? You tell me. Where do the resources to do this park-wide come from?

    Lastly, this all ignores market incentives. Do you want to patronize Disneyland if one Cast Member per month died from poor working conditions? I wouldn't. Many people wouldn't. Does Disney want to pay vast increases in workman's comp premiums? I doubt it. Do they want to start paying more in wages if the jobs become as risky as, say, deep sea crab fishing or underwater welding? I doubt it.

    No one is saying zero regulations; we're saying smart regulations. Sure, the 30" regs may seem innocuous enough. But what if compliance occurred before doors were put on the trams? Might the resources for that instead paid for this compliance? What if a guest then got hurt falling from the tram. Did we come out ahead in the area of safety?
    Last edited by loungefly97; 04-25-2013 at 05:54 PM.

  8. #338

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by DLFan1995 View Post
    Construction workers don't normally carry a lot of heavy weight in dangerous locations. I would think that the chances of injury from a 6" misstep is more likely than a fall from 30" as people are more likely to be more careful as the danger increases. While the injury from a higher point will likely be more severe, that isn't always the case.

    A 6" misstep is more likely than a three foot fall while carrying a freezer. Having a freezer fall on you can still kill you, even if just falling over after a small misstep.

    Those people who fail to take care when in riskier situations will be more likely to get injured (even in less risky situations) whether they are "protected" or not. And depending on "protection" can be a hazard in itself. Even with safety equipment, one should be aware of the potential hazard if such equipment failed (as the case with the Space Mountain cleaner).
    Having been an actual hands-on construction worker for the past 38 years, I find this post to be about as true as it gets.

    I carry heavy stuff on a regular basis. Some of it weighs more than I do. If there's a 29" drop, you can bet I won't be anywhere near it. Stepping off of that while carrying a 200LB transformer will almost certainly result in a trip to the ER.

    I'm far more likely to trip over a 2" drop, simply because I might not see it, where I will see a larger one.

    It's entirely possible that DL has made the mistake of thinking that since nothing has happened yet, nothing ever will. And they got busted by DOSH.

    And yes indeed, 'protection' absolutely can introduce more hazard than it mitigates.

    Case in point; the City Center project in Vegas.

    When a concrete floor is poured above the ground (like the second or third floor), scaffolding is built under it. Q-decking is laid on top of the scaffolding. Q-decking is corrugated tin, a lot like a barn roof.

    After conduits, pipes, etc. are installed, concrete is poured on top of the Q-decking. When the concrete is dry enough to support its own weight, the scaffolding below is removed. Usually, the frames are lowered down by a rope to a guy on the ground who stacks them up for storage.

    The city cemetery (as it became known) was built in a mad rush (perfectly fine with OSHA), that there was no time to gently lower the scaffold frames. Instead, they were dropped to the ground, and later stacked for storage.

    I didn't work on the project, but I knew a bunch of guys who did. One of them was up on the scaffolding, disassembling it. And tossing the frames to the ground. He was wearing his safety harness, as required. He was also securing the lanyard to the frames, as required. Only one slight problem.......one time, he secured the lanyard to the very frame that he tossed over the edge.

    He did not survive.

    He was in complete compliance with all regulations. I seriously doubt that OSHA has a rule that states 'Thou shalt not tie thyself off to a scaffold frame which thou hurlest to the ground'.

    Lol.

    But seriously, I've been there. There's no doubt whatsoever in my mind that if the guy wasn't using fall protection, he would be alive today. This guy wasn't a dummy. He knew what he was doing. The rules required him to step out of his normal style, unfortunately with fatal results.

    If OSHA actually cares about safety, they'd do something about jobs being rushed to the point of danger.

    But that would require judgement; all OSHA cares about is ramming rules on people.

    Sorry for the rant; that guy could have very easily been me. It hits close to home.

    In my opinion, forced compliance with too many rules causes a loss of common sense. Blind obedience without room for reasoning is by far the most serious hazard that exists.

    Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that there should be no rules, that'd be chaos. I'm advocating that basic common sense should always be allowed to precede regulation. Rules need to be flexible, not rigid.

  9. #339

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by micromind View Post
    He was also securing the lanyard to the frames, as required. Only one slight problem.......one time, he secured the lanyard to the very frame that he tossed over the edge.

    He did not survive.

    He was in complete compliance with all regulations. I seriously doubt that OSHA has a rule that states 'Thou shalt not tie thyself off to a scaffold frame which thou hurlest to the ground'.

    The rules required him to step out of his normal style, unfortunately with fatal results.

    If OSHA actually cares about safety, they'd do something about jobs being rushed to the point of danger.

    But that would require judgement; all OSHA cares about is ramming rules on people.

    Sorry for the rant; that guy could have very easily been me. It hits close to home.

    In my opinion, forced compliance with too many rules causes a loss of common sense. Blind obedience without room for reasoning is by far the most serious hazard that exists.

    Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that there should be no rules, that'd be chaos.
    Just because a worker followed the rules to the letter, and they had an accident and died, doesn't mean that the rules are dangerous and do more harm than without them. That would be like saying that because a driver without a blemish on their record is killed by a drunk driver so traffic laws are meaningless. Or perhaps that somebody who made a lawful right hand turn and drove into a sinkhole and died was put in danger because of the rules.

    Of course, there have to be rules. I would wager that safety harnesses have saved more lives than those construction workers who died in freak accidents because of the their safety harness. If you think you know better then I guess you could petition OSHA or start a "Safety Harnesses Kill" campaign.

    All of these freak accidents are interesting, but you can't make a federal case that safety harnesses are a danger overall, and hence workers should be allowed to use "common sense." If safety harnesses were optional unless a worker decides they need them, then you might well see 95% of workers doing without them and more deaths.

    It is obvious that you think that OSHA doesn't care about safety. Nice way to put yourself on a pedestal, but I kinda doubt that the thousands of OHSA employees and the research they do is all for show.

    There can be freak accidents with a 2" drop . . . what is that a step? But I think it is good common sense to have railing at 30" and above, of course this covers drops of 3 feet, 4 feet, 5 feet . . . I think it's certifiable to say that there should no railings because somebody tripped over a step.

    You gotta draw the line somewhere, and something tells me that if OSHA asked you to draw the line you'd have no idea where to start. 40"? 50"? You do know that OSHA uses studies of real world accidents and they aren't pulling these numbers out of thin air . . .

  10. #340

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    Re: Editors Note: Multiple Disneyland Attractions Closed by DOSH for Safety Reasons

    It looks like Disney might be closing Casey Jr. and Finding Nemo for DOSH problems! Disneyland Park hours shows pending Refurbishments on these 2 attractions. They are listed along the same lines as Space Mountain, which is listed as still pending. Park Hours & Calendar | Disneyland Resort
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