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  1. #31

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Not true. From the DOSH website:

    "The Division of Occupational Safety and Health (DOSH), better known as Cal/OSHA, protects workers from health and safety hazards on the job in almost every workplace in California through its research and standards, enforcement, and consultation programs. Cal/OSHA also oversees programs to promote public safety on elevators, amusement rides, ski lifts and to promote the safe use of pressure vessels (e.g., boilers and tanks)."
    Nice spin they put on it.

    So what we have is an agency that is entitled 'Occupational', but it is also responsible for public safety?

    Actually, in my opinion, what very likely happened is that the various public safety divisions that used to be stand-alone agencies were at some point grouped under DOSH.

    The inspectors that caused all the trouble at DL have no idea how to inspect any of the specialty items, such as boilers of elevators. They are more the fundraising arm of DOSH than anything else. They would look right at a steam boiler that had it's high-pressure relief valve plugged, and wouldn't recognize the hazard. The boiler inspector on the other hand........

    These inspectors don't cite things that are a hazard to the public, that's the job of a different division of DOSH. They only inspect things that effect employees.

    So yes, DOSH does indeed have some responsibility for public safety, but depending on the particular division you're dealing with, they might not care about the public.

  2. #32

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Quote Originally Posted by stitch1085 View Post
    I believe that the government being seemingly overbearing is a direct result of our society not holding ourselves to take responsibility for our actions.
    There are two ways to look at this;

    1) The government needed to step in because people were becoming less responsible.

    2) People became less responsible because the government became overly intrusive into personal lives, and through excessive regulation, they stifled the ability of the people to think for themselves.

  3. #33

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin View Post
    I thought Disney put them on Voluntarily. Couldn't the ride just like Space Mountain catwalks could have been grandfathered in. But instead Disney decided to meet new codes?
    OSHA/DOSH doesn't grandfather anything in. Everything must be in complete compliance with the latest regulations.

    I agree with others here, what was installed was the least costly way to comply with current regulations. It bugs me every time I see it.

    I'm pretty sure that I could have designed and built railings that would comply with DOSH standards and normally be stored out of sight. These could be set up by one person in about 10 minutes when needed. It's not difficult at all.

    But DL chose the cheap way out, as usual.
    Last edited by micromind; 05-27-2013 at 08:32 PM.

  4. #34

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Quote Originally Posted by micromind View Post
    OSHA/DOSH doesn't grandfather anything in. Everything must be in complete compliance with the latest regulations.
    Are you sure?

  5. #35

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Quote Originally Posted by micromind View Post
    Nice spin they put on it.
    What spin? All they did is provide a summary of what the agency is responsible for.

    Quote Originally Posted by micromind View Post
    So what we have is an agency that is entitled 'Occupational', but it is also responsible for public safety?
    It’s not unusual for an agency to have responsibilities that may seem out of sort when looking at the agency’s name. One of the agencies charged with enforcing the Volstead Act was the IRS. In this case, it does make sense for DOSH to also be concerned with public safety in amusement parks. The inspectors have to make visits for employee safety anyways, so they may as well check for to make sure that patrons are safe as well. This way the park doesn’t need to have two different inspection visits.

    Quote Originally Posted by micromind View Post
    Actually, in my opinion, what very likely happened is that the various public safety divisions that used to be stand-alone agencies were at some point grouped under DOSH.
    This could very well be. If there are redundant agencies, it would make sense for the state to combine them to save money.

    Quote Originally Posted by micromind View Post
    The inspectors that caused all the trouble at DL have no idea how to inspect any of the specialty items, such as boilers of elevators. They are more the fundraising arm of DOSH than anything else.
    Why would you think a boiler expert would inspect theme park rides? I would think their inspectors that specialize in boilers would be sent out to locations that require such inspection. Just like I wouldn’t expect the guys who make sure the track is safe for Space Mountain would be looking at boilers.

    As far as fundraising, that is something Disney did to itself by being irresponsible with ensuring their park is up to current codes.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  6. #36

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    As far as fundraising, that is something Disney did to itself by being irresponsible with ensuring their park is up to current codes.
    Exactly. The often-heard accusations that DOSH is corrupt, that DOSH overreaches its authority, and that DOSH deliberately issues safety citations to raise funds for itself, ignore the issue of how and why its authority over amusement parks came about nearly 15 years ago, namely, the alarming increase in casualties caused by the amusement park industry's notorious cheapness in safety-related funding, training, inspections and material.

    There is no question that the industry brought DOSH upon itself. Nor is there any question that without DOSH, the industry would revert to its previous priority of profits-first/safety-last. Blaming DOSH safety citations on government overreaching, on nanny-state mentality or on the stupidity of amusement park customers ignores the reality of history, which shows there is only one reason that DOSH exists: the greed of amusement park companies.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

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  7. #37

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Disneyland is not a traveling carnival. It is a major resort destination that has been in business for nearly 60 years, and has an impeccable safety record. I don't know if DOSH is corrupt, or if they are indeed citing nitpicks to raise funds for itself (though such practices have been documented in government bureaucracies), but I do know that there is no reasonable basis to claim that Disneyland has been "irresponsible" when it comes to the safety of their workers or their guests.

    I suspect some of the vitriol being hurled their way stems from a more general anti-corporate attitude akin to those who once occupied Wall Street. Posters are entitled to their biases - heaven knows I have mine - but it makes no sense to believe that Disney is playing fast and loose with anyone's safety. No business wants the kind of negative press coverage and legal action that follows an injury or, God forbid, a fatality in a place that caters to children and families.

    Getting back to 'Alice' - I wish a fix that would satisfy all parties would have been implemented by now. But that doesn't change the fact that the requirement to add railings to satisfy overreaching safety regulations, on an attraction with 50 years of operation without incident, seems very much like the type of nanny state intrusion that does not bode well for the future. There is no possible way to guarantee one's safety anywhere, so it is up to businesses and government agencies to decide what qualifies as reasonable safety improvement measures. Whatever ultimately happens with 'Alice,' the difference in safety will likely be negligible.

  8. #38

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Mercury View Post
    Disneyland is not a traveling carnival. It is a major resort destination that has been in business for nearly 60 years, and has an impeccable safety record. I don't know if DOSH is corrupt, or if they are indeed citing nitpicks to raise funds for itself (though such practices have been documented in government bureaucracies), but I do know that there is no reasonable basis to claim that Disneyland has been "irresponsible" when it comes to the safety of their workers or their guests.
    Disneyland was responsible for the death of two guests. That is why DOSH became involved.

  9. #39

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    i hate it with my whole being. it is such an eyesore and makes me feel like i am at a cheap carnival. please Disney, you can do much better than the hidious green leaf tarps that shouldn't have NOT lasted more than a month.
    To all who come to this Happy Place.... WELCOME ºoº
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  10. #40

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    Disneyland was responsible for the death of two guests. That is why DOSH became involved.
    I assume you are referring to the incidents on the Columbia and Thunder Mountain. Both tragic, and yes, both could have been avoided if maintenance procedures were followed (Thunder Mountain) and CM training was correctly performed (Columbia). But note that Disneyland did have the proper training and maintenance policies in place - they were just ignored. The company did not fail these guests - individual company employees did.

    To me, neither of these are evidence that Disneyland doesn't care about the well-being of its workers or guests, or is "irresponsible" when it comes to safety. It is an imperfect world filled with imperfect people, and there is no way to legislate accidents and mental lapses out of any workplace.

    Two tragedies occurring years apart should not give DOSH license to add railings to every building and bubble-wrap every visitor. Hundreds of millions of people safely enjoyed the parks - and thousands of workers safely completed their shifts - without these over-reaches. I stand by my statement that Disney's record on safety is impeccable.

  11. #41

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Mercury View Post
    I assume you are referring to the incidents on the Columbia and Thunder Mountain. Both tragic, and yes, both could have been avoided if maintenance procedures were followed (Thunder Mountain) and CM training was correctly performed (Columbia). But note that Disneyland did have the proper training and maintenance policies in place - they were just ignored. The company did not fail these guests - individual company employees did.
    Mistakes of individual employees are the responsibility of the company if the mistake was made in the normal performance of their duty. An employer is liable for torts committed by employees during the normal course of their duty.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Mercury View Post
    To me, neither of these are evidence that Disneyland doesn't care about the well-being of its workers or guests, or is "irresponsible" when it comes to safety. It is an imperfect world filled with imperfect people, and there is no way to legislate accidents and mental lapses out of any workplace.
    It’s true that accidents will always happen, but why not minimize the probability of those accidents occurring. Had Disney installed the proper tie down points on Space Mountain, there would be less of a chance of the worker doing a barrel role down the side of it a few months ago. Had the breakaway walls been installed on the carousel theater from the beginning, that girl wouldn’t have been squished when America Sings opened. Safety codes are there for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Mercury View Post
    Two tragedies occurring years apart should not give DOSH license to add railings to every building and bubble-wrap every visitor. Hundreds of millions of people safely enjoyed the parks - and thousands of workers safely completed their shifts - without these over-reaches. I stand by my statement that Disney's record on safety is impeccable.
    Some of the new safety stuff may be Disney taking precautionary measures so they don’t have any more major shutdowns like they did a few months ago due to the company’s ignoring of safety codes. It’s not the government agencies fault that Disney ignored the rules, nor is it overreaching to enforce those rules. The fault lies with Disney.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  12. #42

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Some of the new safety stuff may be Disney taking precautionary measures so they don’t have any more major shutdowns like they did a few months ago due to the company’s ignoring of safety codes. It’s not the government agencies fault that Disney ignored the rules, nor is it overreaching to enforce those rules. The fault lies with Disney.
    Exactly. Especially considering that the policy of Disneyland's top management at that time was to skimp on maintenance, training and replacement parts, and that the president of Disneyland was on record as stating that rides needed to be "run until they break."

    The thing that empowered DOSH in 2000 wasn't merely the number of accidents in the amusement park industry, it was the blatant behavior of multiple corporate managements, Disney included, of putting profits over safety.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
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  13. #43

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Mercury View Post
    I assume you are referring to the incidents on the Columbia and Thunder Mountain. Both tragic, and yes, both could have been avoided if maintenance procedures were followed (Thunder Mountain) and CM training was correctly performed (Columbia). But note that Disneyland did have the proper training and maintenance policies in place - they were just ignored. The company did not fail these guests - individual company employees did.

    To me, neither of these are evidence that Disneyland doesn't care about the well-being of its workers or guests, or is "irresponsible" when it comes to safety. It is an imperfect world filled with imperfect people, and there is no way to legislate accidents and mental lapses out of any workplace.

    Two tragedies occurring years apart should not give DOSH license to add railings to every building and bubble-wrap every visitor. Hundreds of millions of people safely enjoyed the parks - and thousands of workers safely completed their shifts - without these over-reaches. I stand by my statement that Disney's record on safety is impeccable.
    The dangerous culture that was present at Disneyland during the time is well documented. Efficiency trumped Safety, coming directly from the likes of T. Irby, Cynthia Harris and Paul Pressler.

    "We have to ride these rides to failure to save money."
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    Disney Ride Upkeep Assailed - Los Angeles Times

  14. #44

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Not having an accident is only proof that it hasn't happened yet. It is in no way evidence that it can't happen. Look how long Thunder Mountain was in operation before the train did a barrel roll over that guy.

    All it takes is on evacuation of an immobilized ride vehicle on a wet night and some poor tourist could do a slip and slide right off the side of that vine. Add to that the fact that there has been testimony on ths very forum that workers already feel safer with the new railings when walking in that area and it is proof that Disney needs to pull its head out of its butt and design something aesthetically pleasing for that ride.
    Sorry, roughly 55 years of operation (minus however long it was down in 83) and probably hundreds of millions of riders without any incident does indicate to me that there was no safety risk with the ride. As I'm sure you know, Thunder was not a design problem or missing safety equipment but a lack of performing the already known and required maintenance. Not close to the same thing.

  15. #45

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    Re: Alice: Three Years Later...

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Not having an accident is only proof that it hasn't happened yet.
    Proof? No, of course not. I cannot fathom any actual proof under any amount of evidence. But it is strong evidence that such an event is unlikely. If a bad event were likely, given the millions of opportunities a likely event having occurred by now is incredibly probable. By the contrapositive, since no bad events have occurred a bad event is *not* likely.

    All it takes is on evacuation of an immobilized ride vehicle on a wet night and some poor tourist could do a slip and slide right off the side of that vine.
    So, if the ride were restored to its condition three years ago, would you personally ride on Alice, or would you consider it too risky to ride because it might require you to evac, and that evac might occur on the elevated section, and the elevated section might be wet, and you might slip, and if you slip you might fall, and if you fall you might get hurt?

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