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  1. #136

    • Pilot EdForceOne
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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Straw man argument there.
    Straw man? Your argument was customers could not handle it - these are the same customers that CAN and DO handle it in other venues. Or are you suggesting that theme park customers are an entirely unique demographic in our economy.. that do not patronize any of the types of establishments I mentioned?

    The point was these models are familiar, and they are tolerated, and even expected in many cases.

    Theme parks are not unique. You are making the case that they are different... they are different only in that those parks have all converted to a 'all you can eat' model. The principles of why one model works vs another is no different in a theme park vs a carnival or arcade or go-kart complex. The only variation is the scale and diversity of the complex.. which helps drive the length of stay for the customer. Which again only ties to the 'value' part of the discussion.. which you can't have without talking specific prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Disney's a theme park, and we need to look at what theme parks do for their business model
    Why? Using your same argument, no one would have ever moved to 'all you can eat' or up front purchases... because no one was doing it.

    In fact, if memory serves.. I think it was Knotts that went to an all inclusive ticket first.. and Disneyland followed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Just about every cheap carnival, from the OC Fair on, offers PoP pricing in addition to tickets. Every major amusement and theme park is on a PoP model. Please share with us the name of ONE major amusement or theme park that uses tickets exclusively, without offering a Pay One Price option...wait, never mind, you won't find one.
    You're blending concepts. You mention many places offering pay one price... yet you glance over it's not the same model as Disney which is 'pay admission only'. The wristband programs you mention are forms of upsell.. upselling customers to increase their potential spend in return for the lure of unlimited use. Disney's model is not a upsell lure like that.. it's just a flat out admission model. The wristbands are priced in a way to increase the expected revenue per guest. They aren't a model to benefit the guest.. they are a model to try to take your $20 spend to $30.. etc. They are also used to lure people during off-peak hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    They would think "I can do everything at Knotts or Universal for one price, I'm not dealing with these tickets." And they would be right
    And conversely... a customer saying 'Lets goto a park tomorrow. But I can't spend $100.. I only want to spend $50.. I could visit Disneyland, do a few things, take in the sights, and do it for a fraction of that price compared to elsewhere'. What you paint as burden, can just just as easily painted as flexibility or choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    With movies, restaurants, mini golf and go-karts, you're showing up to experience once specific thing. You're not intending to spend the day there sampling every single thing the restaurant or cinema has to offer.
    When you goto a go-kart place... you often pay per ride, or even per lap on larger attractions. You can spend many hours at good ones. But really does the length matter? You're arguing people won't tolerate pay per use.. yet there are black and white examples where they do. Putt Putt you play per round... same with Golf. Is the # of cycles the same? No, but would you play 2 rounds if it were free instead of just 1? Why do they burden people with pay per use instead of just saying 'pay one price, use it till you tire of it'.

    If what you use to dismiss these examples held up.. the business would not lose in that situation because enough customers are not interested in repeating. But reality is, they do repeat, and the business monetizes that.

    People do use pay per use.. and in many situations it's preferable. Do you pay $20 a month to get rental movies? Or do you opt out of a monthly commitment and opt to pay $1/rental at redbox? You may decide that you don't need 20 rentals a month.. so you want to pay that upfront cost. Or maybe you don't know how many you will use. Another great example of 'pay per use' over a flat up front charge working, and being successful for both customers and the operator.

    The incredibly high price of the front-loaded admission causes it's own stress as well..
    Last edited by flynnibus; 06-12-2013 at 07:13 PM.
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  2. #137

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    For sure I think lines would go down....and some people would save a tone of money instead of having to buy a 600 bucks AP they can just enter everyday and just pick up thrown away ticket books and go on a few rides and eat just one meal and have a great little day

  3. #138

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    We're not talking about the rides or the park design. Those have nothing to do with ticketing
    Disney used to be far more innovative than just rides... I mean.. the whole theory of the park was innovative. You continue to argue that Disney needs to stay the course.. because of what everyone else is doing. That's pretty much the definition of lack of innovation, where you follow because you think that's all that is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    I'd be far more disappointed if Disney decided to ignore the needs and expectations of its customer base and tried to return to something that has already been deemed obsolete.
    If you only gave people what they thought they wanted.. you'd never have Disneyland.

    The irony here is so thick.. you're arguing Disney must conform with the industry.. because that's what the industry has done instead of arguing why it's the right move.

    'All you can eat' pricing is setup to benefit the operator.. not the customer!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
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  4. #139

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Straw man? Your argument was customers could not handle it - these are the same customers that CAN and DO handle it in other venues. Or are you suggesting that theme park customers are an entirely unique demographic in our economy.. that do not patronize any of the types of establishments I mentioned?

    The point was these models are familiar, and they are tolerated, and even expected in many cases.

    Theme parks are not unique. You are making the case that they are different... they are different only in that those parks have all converted to a 'all you can eat' model. The principles of why one model works vs another is no different in a theme park vs a carnival or arcade or go-kart complex. The only variation is the scale and diversity of the complex.. which helps drive the length of stay for the customer. Which again only ties to the 'value' part of the discussion.. which you can't have without talking specific prices.
    I'm not sure why you're on the attack with me specifically. I'm not going to argue with you, sorry, and I will just be ignoring after this. To address your point, though:

    You're still on the straw man. We're not talking about whether people will pay per use for other goods or services. Nowhere did I say in my post that pay one price was a viable business model for every type of endeavor, and if you read that, it's your misunderstanding. We're talking specifically about theme parks, and whether they expect or want to pay per ride at a theme park. Given that every single major park, and most minor ones and carnivals, are on a pay one price system, it's clear that it's the one consumers demand and expect.

    And every major theme park uses Disney's model of admission up front to cover everything; it's not an upsell at all. It's precisely the same as Disney's business model. Cheap carnivals and minor theme parks offer options.

    People most certainly have different expectations for different categories and types of entertainment. When I go on a plane, I expect to pay for meals. When I go on a cruise, I expect meals to be included. Same consumer, different expectations. Cinema and live shows are on one model (pay per film or performance). Music festivals are on another (Pay per day of experiences). It's completely irrelevant to argue about what someone will do at a movie, restaurant or go-kart track because we're not talking about that sort of entertainment. And yes, they are different. Try to run a theme park the way you'd run a movie theater, bookstore, skating rink or club and you will be out of business in about two seconds. Period.

    What you're paying for with a theme park admission ticket is the day's experience, which includes a lot of attractions and features. The attractions and features aren't piecemeal; they're part of the whole experience you're purchasing. That's one of the many things that makes it different than a movie theater, etc. where you're there for one specific feature or activity.

    If you only gave people what they thought they wanted.. you'd never have Disneyland.

    The irony here is so thick.. you're arguing Disney must conform with the industry.. because that's what the industry has done instead of arguing why it's the right move.
    Again, perhaps you need to go back and read again? It's been spelled out by several people, including me, as to why it's a bad idea to use ticket books, and a lot of other reasons, apart from industry standards, have been supplied.
    Last edited by Malina; 06-12-2013 at 08:11 PM.
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  5. #140

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    I don't believe that Disneyland asked the guests whether they wanted to switch from ticket books to an all inclusive ticket.

    I don't believe the airlines asked their customers if they wished to forego a meal on a plane, and most recently nobody asked me, if I wanted to pay to check a bag.

    Some new things are popular, and some are not. Most things we don't have a choice about. They are decided for us, by the people in charge.
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  6. #141

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    The reality is that Disney is spending billions of dollars on the MyMagic+ technology that is going to allow them to experiment with a variety of new ticketing options. A version of ride tickets could very well return, it would be very easy to implement at any time since they'll have all the needed infrastructure in place. Ironically, this is one area where Disney actually is still on the cutting edge.

    It may come in a variety of forms, there are a lot of things they could try. They could put a limit on your number of free Fastpasses and charge extra for more or give more to resort guests. They very well may offer a very expensive, "Front of the line pass," that would allow guests to just enter all Fastpass attractions without reservation. They could also offer a version of the old ticketing type of system as an option that would be completely electronic.

    I have a feeling that they will add new up-charge attractions even if they keep the normal day ticket. I'm sure that they'd love to add certain special attractions with limited capacity that they can charge a lot for and this will allow them to do that. (Zip line through the Jungle Cruise jungle perhaps?) They also could have an up-charge for new major attractions, but that might anger a lot of people. In any case, I'm sure there are other options that they can experiment with that I'm not even thinking of. In any case, this is really going to change things in specific regard to tickets and what comes with your admission.
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  7. #142

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    I would not be in favor of paying per attraction, and frankly would probably prefer to keeps things as is. However, I could see different tiers of tickets - maybe in the form of wristbands - where you purchase unlimited access to ALL rides, or ALL except E tickets (maybe for kids, senior?), so on.

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  8. #143

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbaraann View Post
    I don't believe that Disneyland asked the guests whether they wanted to switch from ticket books to an all inclusive ticket.

    I don't believe the airlines asked their customers if they wished to forego a meal on a plane, and most recently nobody asked me, if I wanted to pay to check a bag.

    Some new things are popular, and some are not. Most things we don't have a choice about. They are decided for us, by the people in charge.
    Exactly Barbara.. which is why someone can't take the logical leap that because 'thats how it is' meaning 'that's what people want'. Most of these things were done without customer input, and they were given a 'take it or leave it' choice. Accept the change, or walk away... and walking away isn't necessarily a valid choice in all conditions.

    What people 'expect' does not mean they are happy with the option. I expect to pay $4+ for gas... that doesn't mean that is my choice.. so no one should argue that $4+ gas is the business model we should all build around because that's what customers 'expect'.
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  9. #144

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    The older I get the more "New" things I am asked to accept. Sometimes, the older model is kept around, so I still have a choice. Sometimes that is not the case. Example: I can still put a stamp on a bill, and mail it in the corner mailbox. I don't have to use online banking.

    I understand the desire by companies to make things easier for themselves and their customers. People get comfortable with a certain way of doing something. They balk at change when it makes no sense, or complicates their life, or an additional cost is involved. I am up for change, if I can see a benefit to myself.

    In this case, ticket books, like I have said before, would just complicate things.
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  10. #145

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbaraann View Post
    In this case, ticket books, like I have said before, would just complicate things.
    But what if 'ticket books' simply were a charge account - or handled like your hotel room charges? You have a token that simply charges your usage to your account... and your account is automatically settled at the end of your trip? Would it complicate things so much then? Or would it be overhead that is easily accepted and appreciated?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
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  11. #146

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    When I travel to Disneyland, I take out my ticket probably just a few times. When I enter the park, and if I perhaps parkhop, or collect a fastpass. Seems this ticketbook thing, would require more "tracking" than that. That's as simple an explanation as I can come up with.

    I am presently an annual passholder, and my last trip ticket average came out to be about 47 dollars a day. I will be visiting 5 more days in October, so that 47 dollar amount will then be even lower. Will the ticketbook system decrease that cost? I doubt it.

    Charges on an account? I don't think so. Definitely too complicated. I buy one ticket, and I use it, until it isn't good anymore. Can't get any simpler than that.
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  12. #147

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbaraann View Post
    When I travel to Disneyland, I take out my ticket probably just a few times. When I enter the park, and if I perhaps parkhop, or collect a fastpass. Seems this ticketbook thing, would require more "tracking" than that. That's as simple an explanation as I can come up with.

    I am presently an annual passholder, and my last trip ticket average came out to be about 47 dollars a day. I will be visiting 5 more days in October, so that 47 dollar amount will then be even lower. Will the ticketbook system decrease that cost? I doubt it.

    Charges on an account? I don't think so. Definitely too complicated. I buy one ticket, and I use it, until it isn't good anymore. Can't get any simpler than that.
    Agreed! I am glad the Old Timers got to hash this out, but the fact is, "No Thanks!"

  13. #148

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    I'm not sure what to expect after reading the exchange between Barb and Flynn.
    "What do customers want" versus "customer have become conditioned to expect" It's as if the choice is false. There is only one correct choice and that is ticket books.

    The truth is the inclusive ticket is what people want. People don't want the ticket books if it restricts their choices. People only want the ticket books if they know the amount of service they want and don't want to pay more.

    If I visit Disneyland, do I want the ticket books? NOOOO. Because I know how many attractions I want to visit... ALL OF THEM. You can call it conditioning if you wish. I call it marketing and Disney is a marketing genius.

    Do I hate airlines that charge for food? Yes. I am conditioned expecting food when flying, but now, I accept the exchange of cheap fares for food. Flying is absolutely cheaper comparably now than before. There is also more choices of airlines, routes, and destinations. What if I want food? Then pay for it or get business class.

  14. #149

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    There are many times good reasons why old things are replaced by new things. I don't always see the value/benefit right away. However, I now love a lot of the modern technology that I balked at. Magnetic bus cards. ATM cards. Even credit cards. I was slow to jump on board with having a computer. A cell phone. I won't pay a bill online, but I do book airline travel that way. I guess that one was forced on me.

    People get nostagic, and want to return to "the way it used to be".. However sometimes the old doesn't really work the best anymore.

    I can't imagine fumbling for change for the bus, and I am really happy that I don't have to fumble for tickets at the park.
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  15. #150

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    Re: Should we go back to the Ticket Book system?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    People only want the ticket books if they know the amount of service they want and don't want to pay more.
    That's like saying people only want speed bumps in shopping mall parking lots if they know how long they have to shop and don't want to go any faster.
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