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  1. #16

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    ORDDU: As lovers of most Disney movies, my sisters and I love it when there are movie tie-in's to the Disneyland attractions. We wouldn't mind it a bit if every attraction there had a movie tie in.

    ORWEN: After all, it IS Disneyland and if you can't have attractions based on Disney movies at Disneyland where else CAN you have them? It's like complaining weddings because you don't like having a bride or a groom present.

  2. #17

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    Emphasis mine.

    The difficulty with this is trying to compare it against... well, nothing. There ARE no non-franchise rides opening up in IOA or DCA in the near future or recent past. USF had a rollercoaster in 2009, but that's about it.

    It's *easier* to promote a franchise attraction. That's part of why franchises are so valuable - it makes promotion of any of the parts easier because of the whole.

    Easier does not mean that it would not be as successful to launch and promote a non-franchise ride. We just don't have same place data to compare.
    Easier means that there is an inherent interest. When you don't have to market something as much...doesn't that speak about how much people want it? And if they didn't want it before, doesn't that say something about how good it is? Either way, my point is that a new franchised land will draw a lot of people...huge ammounts of people. Enough people to save an entire failing park. Space mountain in Paris couldn't do that.
    In the quest for quality, I have no problem with the characters footing the bill.

  3. #18

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    I personally feel that the up front benefit - immediate name recognition - is outweighed by the fact that most franchises dry up and vanish within a decade.

    Carsland is going to be a giant application test of this. Right now it's going well. But what's going to happen if the franchise dies on the vine? If "Cars 3" makes "Cars 2" look like a freight train of success?

    That's where the short term thinking is a very strong potential liability. Right now they have a land built on one of the strongest merchandise juggernauts that the company's seen in the last two decades.

    There's no guarantee the relevancy will or will not be there in another ten, twenty years. And if it's not? What do they do with it then?
    Credibility is to be sought for. Credulity is not. Sadly the latter is our normal human state.

  4. #19

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    That is why you build a good franchise land or attraction. When we all forget who luigi, lightning and mater are, will you still want to go to CL? I think most people will say yes. People still like Splash even though most haven't seen song of the south. The most recent indy and star wars movies were pretty bad but people still like those attractions. In the end, the best movie rides can stand on their own with or without the tie in.
    In the quest for quality, I have no problem with the characters footing the bill.

  5. #20

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinrar View Post
    That is why you build a good franchise land or attraction. When we all forget who luigi, lightning and mater are, will you still want to go to CL? I think most people will say yes. People still like Splash even though most haven't seen song of the south. The most recent indy and star wars movies were pretty bad but people still like those attractions. In the end, the best movie rides can stand on their own with or without the tie in.
    IMO that's kind of the point of the discussion - the best rides don't need the tie in because they're good rides. If the ride's that good, the movie tie in eventually becomes more potential liability than asset.
    Credibility is to be sought for. Credulity is not. Sadly the latter is our normal human state.

  6. #21

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesDusenberry View Post
    To everyone saying that it's just inevitable because movie-tie in rides and lands are just 'so popular' or 'more popular' ... I don't buy it.

    I'd wager that 90% of Disneyland fans, when asked to rank their favorite rides at the park, will all place non-movie based rides at the top. Classics like POTC (Ignoring Johnny Depp in it now), HM, BTMR, Space, and I'd throw Splash in there since probably close to 99% of people who ride and love it have no idea there's a movie behind it or if they do they've never seen it.
    I highly doubt 90% of Disneyland would leave rides like Star Tours, ToT, and Indiana Jones out of their favorites...
    Favorite Ride: Tower of Terror

  7. #22

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    IMO that's kind of the point of the discussion - the best rides don't need the tie in because they're good rides. If the ride's that good, the movie tie in eventually becomes more potential liability than asset.
    An old tie in has yet to become a liability at the DLR and I doubt it ever will. Splash is the ultimate proof. But the attraction has to be good for this to be true.
    In the quest for quality, I have no problem with the characters footing the bill.

  8. #23

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    I'll use Indy as an example since it was recently mentioned.

    Is there anyone on the board that thinks the ride would have been improved if it was about the *movies* rather than the *character*? Is the ride lesser because the Temple of Mara is not "canon"?

    Indy's barely a "movie" ride in the "ride the movies" sense. It presents a very cinematic experience, but IMO it succeeds in large part because you're going on a *new* adventure that you don't already know in detail.

    I truly believe tying the ride explicitly to a given film franchise puts the ride experience at risk - a LOT of people complain about the Pirates redo to this day, and the redo itself is losing relevancy as key "story" cues from the movies that were shoehorned in are becoming lost in the fog of years and decreasingly viewed sequels.
    Credibility is to be sought for. Credulity is not. Sadly the latter is our normal human state.

  9. #24

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    I'll use Indy as an example since it was recently mentioned.

    Is there anyone on the board that thinks the ride would have been improved if it was about the *movies* rather than the *character*? Is the ride lesser because the Temple of Mara is not "canon"?

    Indy's barely a "movie" ride in the "ride the movies" sense. It presents a very cinematic experience, but IMO it succeeds in large part because you're going on a *new* adventure that you don't already know in detail.

    I truly believe tying the ride explicitly to a given film franchise puts the ride experience at risk - a LOT of people complain about the Pirates redo to this day, and the redo itself is losing relevancy as key "story" cues from the movies that were shoehorned in are becoming lost in the fog of years and decreasingly viewed sequels.
    Well detaching a tie in from a previous story is part of making a good attraction. Its what makes nemo subs so bad since it is very close to the original movie plot. They did good with star tours, racers, and indy because of the very fact that they tell a new story within a beloved universe.

    And don't get me started on pirates. There were so many better ways they could have put Jack in there without screwing up the original plot. That is a clear example of a bad movie tie in.
    In the quest for quality, I have no problem with the characters footing the bill.

  10. #25

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    I'll use Indy as an example since it was recently mentioned.

    Is there anyone on the board that thinks the ride would have been improved if it was about the *movies* rather than the *character*? Is the ride lesser because the Temple of Mara is not "canon"?

    Indy's barely a "movie" ride in the "ride the movies" sense. It presents a very cinematic experience, but IMO it succeeds in large part because you're going on a *new* adventure that you don't already know in detail.
    That's why I believe Indiana Jones, Star Tours and Tower of Terror work so well. They are new experiences. I believe these types of movie/ TV tie ins should be welcomed, they only strengthen the attraction. Indiana Jones works better with the Indy theme than if it was a stand alone "wild temple ride". This is coming from a huge Indiana Jones fan of course.
    Favorite Ride: Tower of Terror

  11. #26

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin View Post
    That's why I believe Indiana Jones, Star Tours and Tower of Terror work so well. They are new experiences. I believe these types of movie/ TV tie ins should be welcomed, they only strengthen the attraction. Indiana Jones works better with the Indy theme than if it was a stand alone "wild temple ride". This is coming from a huge Indiana Jones fan of course.
    I'm not certain Indy is absolutely central to Indy being a success, if you follow me.

    My standards are essentially based on the level of familiarity with the specific character being central to the ride. I can easily see Indy being *just* as good with a non-specific character invented for the ride. You'd lose the direct connection to that one character, but who's to say that in another thirty years that's not a good thing? I have a suspicion that's what will eventually happen to many of the better movie-based rides in any case. USH's been gradually pushing "Mummy" off the Brendan Fraiser track for years, f'r example.
    Credibility is to be sought for. Credulity is not. Sadly the latter is our normal human state.

  12. #27

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    ...There's no guarantee the relevancy will or will not be there in another ten, twenty years. And if it's not? What do they do with it then?
    "What will they do with it in 20 years" ain't their problem. The bulk of DLR and WDW management is no longer composed of up-from-the-ranks "lifers" like the people who built and managed Disneyland, rather revolving-door professionals whose short-term thinking is matched by their short terms at Disney.


    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    It winds up with a very "Harvard MBA" development style. The popular culture franchises are very tempting targets because they come with a built in audience and are very low-hanging fruit when it comes to "will this work" decisions.
    Exactly. But Disney management doesn't just pick the low-hanging fruit, they mass-harvest it. Their M.O. is to go for only pre-proven brands (most of which they had no hand in creating), mass market Disneyland to pack in the cash customers (i.e. aggressive sales of APs), invent bigger and better ways of squeezing every last bit of gold from the geese (i.e. MyMagicEverything), add the Disney gold star to their resume, and move out & up.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 07-17-2013 at 03:37 PM.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
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  13. #28

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    Quote Originally Posted by Witches of Morva View Post
    ORDDU: As lovers of most Disney movies, my sisters and I love it when there are movie tie-in's to the Disneyland attractions. We wouldn't mind it a bit if every attraction there had a movie tie in.

    ORWEN: After all, it IS Disneyland and if you can't have attractions based on Disney movies at Disneyland where else CAN you have them? It's like complaining weddings because you don't like having a bride or a groom present.
    Nobody is saying that every single attraction that comes to Disneyland needs to original. However, there needs to be a balance between movie tie-in and original attractions so that we aren't getting movie attractions all the time. Another thing I would like to mention about Disney/Pixar movie attractions in the last decade is that they seem to be more passive and retelling the story rather than coming up with a creative, original storyline. With attractions like Ariel, Pooh, Monsters, and Nemo, you are just sitting back and watching the movies again without really getting involved with what's going on like with RSR and Indy and Mr. Toad. If Disney was not so uninspired when creating many of these recent Disney/Pixar movie attractions, then maybe they would be better overall attractions.

  14. #29

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    BogLurch: "Emphasis mine.

    The difficulty with this is trying to compare it against... well, nothing. There ARE no non-franchise rides opening up in IOA or DCA in the near future or recent past. USF had a rollercoaster in 2009, but that's about it.

    It's *easier* to promote a franchise attraction. That's part of why franchises are so valuable - it makes promotion of any of the parts easier because of the whole.

    Easier does not mean that it would not be as successful to launch and promote a non-franchise ride. We just don't have same place data to compare."


    ^ Agree. I think the argument that movie-based rides are the main reason more people are going to DCA is bunk. The only fair thing one could do if they wanted to attempt that argument would be to compare both the initial popularity and the long term popularity of something like Cars Land against Grizzly Gulch or Radiator Springs Racers against Expedition Everest.

    I have a strong suspicion that if someone was to look into it, the new and original rides would win out.
    Words any Disney fan and especially Disney employee should live by:

    "Disneyland is a work of love. We didn't go into Disneyland just with the idea of making money."
    -Walt Disney

    "Disneyland will never be completed. It will continue to grow as long as there is imagination left in the world."
    -Walt Disney

    "I do not like to repeat successes, I like to go on to other things."
    -Walt Disney

    "We did it, Disneyland, in the knowledge that most of the people I talked to thought it would be a financial disaster - closed and forgotten within the first year."
    -Walt Disney

    "It's kind of fun to do the impossible."
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    "I only hope that we don't lose sight of one thing - that it was all started by a mouse."
    -Walt Disney

  15. #30

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    Re: An Epidemic of Movie-Based Rides...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinrar View Post
    Easier means that there is an inherent interest. When you don't have to market something as much...doesn't that speak about how much people want it? And if they didn't want it before, doesn't that say something about how good it is? Either way, my point is that a new franchised land will draw a lot of people...huge ammounts of people. Enough people to save an entire failing park. Space mountain in Paris couldn't do that.

    This way of thinking about the parks and attractions is EXACTLY the root of the problem. These decisions are being made by executives who are only looking at demographic trends, quarterly stock reports, and guest statistics they get from all those surveys we see people doing as you exit the park. They are focused on the bottom line and on finding more and more ways to keep promoting and selling their already existing products in order to make more money. I have heard from many Disney animators and Imagineers who complain constantly that anything they do always has the bottom line attached to it and anything they want to do has to be backed up by some kind of statistical data that shows projected revenue and growth from said attraction for X and Y reasons. If they can't show those things then their project has no chance of making it beyond the blue sky stage.

    Disney has been shoving these movie-based rides into Disneyland and moreso in DCA in a feeble attempt to improve a failed park. And part of the reason is because they did build a failed park to begin with and they were just concerned with getting the most people there to make the most money at the cheapest possible cost. I mean... do people here forget the HUGE drama between Roy Disney and the board? When they voted him out and he started SaveDisney.com and had his huge public battle for the heart and soul of Disney between him and Eisner. And then Eisener won, SaveDisney went away, and now sadly Roy has died and his message seems to have died along with him; at least in the company board room.

    And again, any and all argument that people 'want' movie-based rides or that they are more popular is total bunk. First off, when did anyone ever see or hear of any kind of petition to build Bug's Land or Cars Land? When was there ever a poll taken or public forum conducted by the company asking fans what they wanted next? There never was and never has been anything like that.. Disney doesn't build things based on what the fans are saying they want to see, they build what they want to see and what they think will be good. The difference was that previously the decisions on what was good were made based on the quality of the story and of the ride experience and of the construction of the attraction. Now those decisions are based just on what is good for the bottom line and stock shareholders. And again... Disney is absolutely building new, innovative, original attractions which are immensely popular ... they just for some reason aren't building them at Disneyland. THAT is the problem.
    Words any Disney fan and especially Disney employee should live by:

    "Disneyland is a work of love. We didn't go into Disneyland just with the idea of making money."
    -Walt Disney

    "Disneyland will never be completed. It will continue to grow as long as there is imagination left in the world."
    -Walt Disney

    "I do not like to repeat successes, I like to go on to other things."
    -Walt Disney

    "We did it, Disneyland, in the knowledge that most of the people I talked to thought it would be a financial disaster - closed and forgotten within the first year."
    -Walt Disney

    "It's kind of fun to do the impossible."
    -Walt Disney

    "I only hope that we don't lose sight of one thing - that it was all started by a mouse."
    -Walt Disney

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