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  1. #46

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    I'm not saying past success in the franchise doesn't weigh in - just that the simple fact that there's an impending movie to be released isn't apparently the deciding factor in the decision.
    The CBJ movie came out in the summer of 2002, after the ride was closed. There wasn't a proven track record of success. So, that wasn't a factor in CBJ closing in Disneyland. Paul Pressler and Cynthia Harris wanted to make money off of Pooh, and put in a cheap Pooh ride.

    Finding Nemo is a bonafide success, and this success drove the Subs to be remade with Nemo. Nobody is thinking that Nemo 2 won't be a success. I don't think that Disney thought that the CBJ movie would launch a franchise, and it didn't.

    Nemo is a company cash cow and keeps the company afloat after disasters like John Carter and the Lone Ranger, people have kinda voted with their wallets and so Nemo kinda deserves a place in the park. After adjusting for box office gross, Nemo is Pixar #1 film of all time.
    Last edited by chesirecat; 08-07-2013 at 02:35 PM.

  2. #47

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    Ah, the observed hourly ride capacity for Autopia is about 1,800 per hour. From Daveland, the Subs ride capacity:

    The record one day patronage for the Submarine Voyage, according to Ted Crowell, is 16,502 and the theoretical capacity in a 16 hour day is 18,240 happy guests. Everyone who has seen the "new" voyage agrees you ain't seen nothing yet and that patronage records are made to be broken.


    They added on two seats, so that will increase capacity a bit. 16,000 is a lot of guests, that works out to about 1,000 guests per hour.

    Autopia plus Subs is about 2,800 guests per hour . . .
    I'm not sure this isn't a specious argument - the rides are operating at the levels they were designed for. Not every ride is, can, or should be a 3k+ hourly tourist vacuum.

    That was my biggest beef with the Rocket Rods. The maximum and the average capacity were in two different worlds due to the frequent breakdowns. I've seen "officially verified" statements (don't necessarily believe them to be official, but hey) that state the expected max hourly at nearly 5k, with the functional down around 1300. The ride system was not working as expected.
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  3. #48

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post

    That was my biggest beef with the Rocket Rods. The maximum and the average capacity were in two different worlds due to the frequent breakdowns. I've seen "officially verified" statements (don't necessarily believe them to be official, but hey) that state the expected max hourly at nearly 5k, with the functional down around 1300. The ride system was not working as expected.
    Pirates has about a 3,400 hourly capacity, that ride loads *way* faster than the Rocket Rods, it loads incredibly fast . . . rows of guest sit down, the boat is dispatched, *rows* of guests sit down. On RR, only a single row of guests sit down at time, and the rate limiting step was probably the spacing between the vehicles. One site for RR says, "one rod every 12 seconds (1500 per hour)"

    Rocket Rods 5 riders * 5 RR per minute * 60 minutes in an hour = 1500 per hour. As a theoretical maximum, no way you could get even close to 5,000

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    I'm not sure this isn't a specious argument - the rides are operating at the levels they were designed for. Not every ride is, can, or should be a 3k+ hourly tourist vacuum.
    No, it is not a specious argument. Specious means un-truthful, I am simply reporting numbers I find with regards to hourly capacity. Also, these numbers were given in response to a poster who believes that Autopia has a low hourly capacity, which is not true. In terms of land utilization at any theme park, it makes sense for a land to have a high hourly capacity, even though the rides may individually be slower loading. Look at Fantasyland, a lot of relatively slow loading dark rides which overall gives the land a healthy hourly capacity.

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    That was my biggest beef with the Rocket Rods. The maximum and the average capacity were in two different worlds due to the frequent breakdowns.
    Rocket Rods theoretical maximum was about 1500, based on how fast you push the RR through the attraction and maintain a safe distance. It would slow down a bit if it took a while to load/unload, but the loading/unloading was not the rate determine step most of the time, (from what I can remember) that would be the preprogramed minimum 12 seconds between "launches".

    The Rocket Rods went 101 a lot, due to software glitches/complexity, and this really wreaked havoc on the line, as frequent closures do. There was also the cost of tires, and the fact that while guests wanted to ride this new attraction, it wasn't as well themed as Space Mountain, and many other attractions.
    Last edited by chesirecat; 08-07-2013 at 03:33 PM.

  4. #49

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    The "specious" was about disputing the worth of a ride based on capacity - sorry if it came off as targeted to you. You seemed to more or less be in agreement with my opinions on that topic in any case.

    And I took the ridership quotes with a massive bag of salt. Most of the "official" chatter I could find (i.e., someone speaking authoritatively with unnamed 'sources' behind them) that gave even rudimentary RR capacity all date to before ride opening. Oddly enough those 'sources' apparently dried up after the ride opened - anything I can find after that point is pretty obviously either observational from people more or less your average board denizen or self-identified CMs bemoaning the radically reduced capacity from what they were being told it should be.
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  5. #50

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    Ah, the observed hourly ride capacity for Autopia is about 1,800 per hour. From Daveland, the Subs ride capacity:

    The record one day patronage for the Submarine Voyage, according to Ted Crowell, is 16,502 and the theoretical capacity in a 16 hour day is 18,240 happy guests. Everyone who has seen the "new" voyage agrees you ain't seen nothing yet and that patronage records are made to be broken.


    They added on two seats, so that will increase capacity a bit. 16,000 is a lot of guests, that works out to about 1,000 guests per hour, for a 16 hour day, and maybe the two extra seats adds on another 30 guests per hour.

    Autopia plus Subs is about 2,800 guests per hour . . .
    And take up a huge amount of space when compared to a people eater like POTC or IASW. If they were re-designed completely they could be improved. I don't think either should be taken out but they need to be better imagined. The biggest issue with the subs redo was taking an existing attraction and just overlaying it basically. Autopia could be redone to travel around TL instead of just the area it's in that would be pretty sweet imo. If they had a clean slate to work with they could do whatever they wanted.

  6. #51

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    The "specious" was about disputing the worth of a ride based on capacity - sorry if it came off as targeted to you. You seemed to more or less be in agreement with my opinions on that topic in any case.
    Oh, sorry, no—I was just making the point that while the Subs/Autopia take up a lot of space, the area has a capacity of about 2,800, a fair sized number, and so it doesn't make sense to eliminate both these attractions based on hourly capacity. When the PM was running, this area of the park could have guests riding the monorail, PM, Subs and Autopia, in an overlapping manner. Not necessarily a waste of space!

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post

    And I took the ridership quotes with a massive bag of salt. Most of the "official" chatter I could find (i.e., someone speaking authoritatively with unnamed 'sources' behind them) that gave even rudimentary RR capacity all date to before ride opening. Oddly enough those 'sources' apparently dried up after the ride opened - anything I can find after that point is pretty obviously either observational from people more or less your average board denizen or self-identified CMs bemoaning the radically reduced capacity from what they were being told it should be.
    Yesterland says that the People Mover's capacity was close to 4,885 guests, but that was because you could literally walk on, while the ride was still moving. On Pirates, guests have to sit down before the boat is dispatched, not so with the old PM which was probably the highest capacity ride Disneyland ever had.

    Obviously, the RR had a set maximum hourly capacity well, well, below that of the PM, literally only a third of the PM.

  7. #52

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    Quote Originally Posted by chesirecat View Post
    There aren't any motor boat canals left, they were filled in, there is just a small pond near the old motorboat dock, but I think they could still put in a decent ride, if they used the old Fantasyland Autopia load area, and a bit of the Autopia track.
    When did this happen? Yesterland says that the canals are still there.

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  8. #53

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Gen Disney Fan View Post
    When did this happen? Yesterland says that the canals are still there.

    Motor Boat Cruise at Yesterland
    The Yesterland photo was taken in 2004....I believe those portions of the canal leading to the Sub Lagoon were filled in about a year later.

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  9. #54

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Gen Disney Fan View Post
    When did this happen? Yesterland says that the canals are still there.

    Motor Boat Cruise at Yesterland
    The canals were filled in slowly over a period of time. I don't know when it began, but the canal system was completely filled in by 2004/5.

  10. #55

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    Thanks for the info! Wiki says that it was done in 2007 during the completion of Nemo. Looks like the actual cement canals are still there but they have just been filled in with dirt for landscaping purposes.

    Either way, it is still a large piece of unused land that can certainly be reimagined into something great!
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  11. #56

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Gen Disney Fan View Post

    Either way, it is still a large piece of unused land that can certainly be reimagined into something great!
    I hope so...maybe one day we'll see a sign along Ball blvd reading "Free -Magical- fill dirt"

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  12. #57

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    I hope so...maybe one day we'll see a sign along Ball blvd reading "Free -Magical- fill dirt"

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  13. #58

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    People talking about how popular Autopia is with kids are kind of missing the point. Everything's relative when it comes to replacing one ride with another. It isn't that they would be replacing Autopia with nothing. That is a huge piece of land. There's enough room there for a new Tomorrowland E-ticket, a new Fantasyland E-ticket, plus at least two other new Fantasyland-style dark rides.

    So you can say that Autopia is popular amongst four year olds, but you can't say that it would be more popular than new Star Wars (or Ironman or whatever) & Beauty & the Beastv E-tickets, and smaller Aladdin & Cinderella darkrides. It also can't match the ride capacity of multiple new rides, nor can it provide the marketing bonanza that Disney would gain in such a massive redo featuring so many different iconic characters.

    Autopia was a great space filler back when there was tons of space that needed to be filled. But don't sit there and tell me that it is so much more wonderful than the bunch of new rides that Disney's imagineers could dream up to put there.

  14. #59

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    Quote Originally Posted by greenalfonzo View Post
    People talking about how popular Autopia is with kids are kind of missing the point. Everything's relative when it comes to replacing one ride with another. It isn't that they would be replacing Autopia with nothing. That is a huge piece of land. There's enough room there for a new Tomorrowland E-ticket, a new Fantasyland E-ticket, plus at least two other new Fantasyland-style dark rides.

    So you can say that Autopia is popular amongst four year olds, but you can't say that it would be more popular than new Star Wars (or Ironman or whatever) & Beauty & the Beastv E-tickets, and smaller Aladdin & Cinderella darkrides. It also can't match the ride capacity of multiple new rides, nor can it provide the marketing bonanza that Disney would gain in such a massive redo featuring so many different iconic characters.

    Autopia was a great space filler back when there was tons of space that needed to be filled. But don't sit there and tell me that it is so much more wonderful than the bunch of new rides that Disney's imagineers could dream up to put there.

    This i pretty much how I feel innoventions and upwards is about two NOS worth of land that could be redesigned into something. Two sub lands maybe? Reconfigure Autopia so it still exists but is updated with a smaller foot print by going in tunnels above ground whatever. You can redo the lagoon and redo the subs. With some imagination it's not tough to figure out how much land is in the area in question. The bigger problem is the money it would cost to do it.

  15. #60

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    Re: A whole Tomorrowland redo should include the removal of Autopia and the Submarine

    I went on Autopia less than 10 times as a kid. Wasnt interested in it then and am not now. But thats just me.

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