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  1. #76

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    Re: Opera House: Miley VS. Annette

    Who cares? No doubt many millennials don't even know who Lincoln (or Elvis, or Lucy, or The Beach Boys or Walt Disney) is, so why not live it up? Should the limits of intelligence stop at what you already know? Or grow to include what you can learn?
    Last edited by merlinjones; 08-31-2013 at 03:39 PM.

  2. #77

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    Re: Opera House: Miley VS. Annette

    Quote Originally Posted by merlinjones
    Who cares? No doubt many millennials don't even know who Lincoln is, so why not live it up? *Should the limits of intelligence stop at what you already know? Or grow to include what you can learn?
    I think just about every Millennial that has ever seen United States currency, or has attended any type of schooling knows who Abraham Lincoln is. Comparing him to Annette in that regard is crazy.

  3. #78

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    Re: Opera House: Miley VS. Annette

    Quote Originally Posted by merlinjones View Post
    ...No doubt many millennials don't even know who Lincoln (or Elvis, or Lucy, or The Beach Boys or Walt Disney) is...
    I don't know what the statistics are today, but I remember being shocked by surveys that showed the number of American high school students in 2000 to 2005 who couldn't remember who Abraham Lincoln, Dwight D. Eisenhower or Jimmy Carter were, couldn't come anywhere close in guessing the years of WWI and WWII, thought major historical events that happened in their great-grandparents' generation were part of their parents' generation, and had an abysmal grasp of American history in general. I'll try to find the citation -- but a caveat that it's not happy reading.

    Sadly, these sort of data are what the marketeers who run Disney Parks use when deciding which celebrity brands should be marketed to their youth-dominated core customer demographic.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 08-31-2013 at 05:01 PM.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  4. #79

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    Re: Opera House: Miley VS. Annette

    The wall is for celebrities who contributed to Disney's brand/starred in major Disney films and shows. As much as I dislike Miley Cyrus, the fact is that Hannah Montana was a big deal for a lot of people, and was certainly as popular as the MMC was in the 1950s.

    I'd also add that the fact that someone was a Disney star doesn't obligate them to be wholesome for the rest of their natural existence. Plenty of the Mouseketeers and other Disney stars have tripped up as adults. It has nothing to do with the performances they turned in years earlier. Disney won't stop selling the Parent Trap remake because Lindsay Lohan might be messed up now - and people will still watch that film and be entertained by it. Britney Spears' cry for help a few years ago doesn't change the fact that she was a very good performer on the MMC. And Miley's antics don't change the fact that a generation of little girls loved her as HM.

    By putting Miley on the wall, Disney is recognizing what she did as Hannah Montana, not anything afterward. And while Miley's actions might be morally distasteful she didn't break any laws.

    Do I think Annette should be there? Heck yes. That is a different issue, though.

    And if we're really we're talking about morality and what Disney's stars should stand for: why the double standard? I personally find the star of Captain EO and his actions - even those apart from the criminal allegations leveled at him - infinitely more reprehensible than anything Miley's done, but nobody's debating getting rid of his images.
    Last edited by Malina; 08-31-2013 at 07:38 PM.
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  5. #80

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    Re: Opera House: Miley VS. Annette

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    The wall is for celebrities who contributed to Disney's brand/starred in major Disney films and shows. As much as I dislike Miley Cyrus, the fact is that Hannah Montana was a big deal for a lot of people, and was certainly as popular as the MMC was in the 1950s.

    I'd also add that the fact that someone was a Disney star doesn't obligate them to be wholesome for the rest of their natural existence. Plenty of the Mouseketeers and other Disney stars have tripped up as adults. It has nothing to do with the performances they turned in years earlier. Disney won't stop selling the Parent Trap remake because Lindsay Lohan might be messed up now - and people will still watch that film and be entertained by it. Britney Spears' cry for help a few years ago doesn't change the fact that she was a very good performer on the MMC. And Miley's antics don't change the fact that a generation of little girls loved her as HM.

    By putting Miley on the wall, Disney is recognizing what she did as Hannah Montana, not anything afterward. And while Miley's actions might be morally distasteful she didn't break any laws.

    Do I think Annette should be there? Heck yes. That is a different issue, though.

    And if we're really we're talking about morality and what Disney's stars should stand for: why the double standard? I personally find the star of Captain EO and his actions - even those apart from the criminal allegations leveled at him - infinitely more reprehensible than anything Miley's done, but nobody's debating getting rid of his images.
    Pretty much this. As an adult, a few years ago I was channel surfing one night while away on buisness and stopped on the Disney channel. Lets just say I had a number of drinks in me but Hannah Montana was on and the episode featured a subplot about Miley/Hannah missing her passed on mother and the episode reminded me of my departed mother. For some reason I became hooked on the show and even liked alot of the songs. I became a Miley fan. Well now she has dissapointed me with her antics and the horrible music she has released recently BUT I will fondly remember those few years where that show brought me some fun times and laughter.

    Of course Annette deserves to be up on the wall but like you said thats a different issue.

    Also I completly agree about MJ. Good songs? Yes, but even in his heyday of the 80s he became known for lots of weird behavior. Remember the crotch grabbing anyone?
    "Fantasy, if it's really convincing, can't become dated, for the simple reason that it represents a flight into a dimension that lies beyond the reach of time" Walt Disney

  6. #81

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    Re: Opera House: Miley VS. Annette

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    The wall is for celebrities who contributed to Disney's brand/starred in major Disney films and shows.
    Not so. Perhaps you have not been on the attraction, so here is the context -- At the conclusion of ''Great Moments With Mr. Lincoln'' doors open and audience exits to the tune of ''Golden Dream'' (song originally written for ''The American Adventure'' at Epcot) and we see a wall of ''great Americans'' from many fields (only a few with Disney connections), who like Lincoln, have reflected/impacted the ''Golden Dream'' of America.

    In that light, Miley's/Hannah's inclusion has always been controversial, as it seemed to be a purely commercial decision beyond the premise, as her photo was alongside legendary entertainers like Elvis and The Beach Boys.

    That Annette would be a more appropriate replacement in that context is simply a historical fact -- for several decades, she was emblematic of the ''Golden Dream'' of America for the mainstream baby boomer generation (just read all the commentary after her passing for proof of that). It was a genuine reaction to her from the public beyond her screen roles or music or art - but the ''people's choice.'' Along the way she also became representational of the golden age of Walt Disney entertainment -- and of the California beach culture dream/myth, both ''Golden Dreams'' of America.

    Miley/Hannah, despite the massive commercial success of the product, has not had that level of impact culturally, and has always been seen just as much as as a bad joke. And her own recent actions seem to indicate she feels the same way. But to be fair, maybe that property is the ''Golden Dream'' of brand marketing (though even in that light I would argue that Miley drew on brand equity while Annette created it).
    Last edited by merlinjones; 09-01-2013 at 06:07 AM.

  7. #82

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    Re: Opera House: Miley VS. Annette

    Quote Originally Posted by merlinjones View Post

    Miley/Hannah, despite the massive commercial success of the product, has not had that level of impact culturally, and has always been seen just as much as as a bad joke. And her own recent actions seem to indicate she feels the same way. But to be fair, maybe that property is the ''Golden Dream'' of brand marketing (though even in that light I would argue that Miley drew on brand equity while Annette created it).
    All true, but I've always seen the Disney connections there as being "important to Disney branding and properties" as opposed to "great American heroes."

    As for the "bad joke..." for adults, yes. Much in the same way most adults probably roll their eyes at the Justin Biebers, New Kids on the Block, and endless other teen/children's performers that come down the pike. For the kids who enjoy those shows and performers, though, someone like Miley is just as valid and has just as much of an impact as a "culturally significant" artist would be to us. Many years ago, one of my co-workers' grandchildren got to meet Miley Cyrus at an event. She said it was the best day of her life...and it was, up until that point. She was seven, and hopefully she still won't count that as her best day when she's 15 or 25 or 50, but the point is that it had that impact for her.

    If we're looking at commercial impact, Miley is right there. She was one of Disney's biggest cash cows in the 2000s. If they wanted to put up a photo of someone who was a modern icon that contemporary guests (read: children) might know, and not a historical one, that would easily be Miley over Annette in that context. I'd argue that brand equity was around way before Annette, as well - in the 1920s and 30s performers like Baby Peggy and Shirley Temple were marketing dreams.

    I'd honestly guess that whenever Disney finds its next cash cow that is as big as Miley that portrait might vanish. That could be a revolving spot for "whoever is keeping the dream of marketing alive right now."

    In the context of the discussion, though, whatever reasons might or might not exist for re-aligning the portrait area, I still feel that taking Miley off the wall due to her actions years after her Disney association - especially when those actions have NOT been criminal in nature at all - is not warranted.

    Is everyone else on that wall above reproach? We still have Lance Amstrong up there, don't we? How about Henry Ford (who funded and distributed an anti-Semitic book that had a huge impact in America)? Thomas Edison (who electrocuted an elephant and numerous other animals simply to promote his DC current)?
    Elvis (drugs)? Why single Miley out for bad behavior and say that warrants her portrait's removal?
    Last edited by Malina; 09-01-2013 at 12:00 PM.
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  8. #83

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    Re: Opera House: Miley VS. Annette

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    All true, but I've always seen the Disney connections there as being "important to Disney branding and properties" as opposed to "great American heroes."

    As for the "bad joke..." for adults, yes. Much in the same way most adults probably roll their eyes at the Justin Biebers, New Kids on the Block, and endless other teen/children's performers that come down the pike. For the kids who enjoy those shows and performers, though, someone like Miley is just as valid and has just as much of an impact as a "culturally significant" artist would be to us. Many years ago, one of my co-workers' grandchildren got to meet Miley Cyrus at an event. She said it was the best day of her life...and it was, up until that point. She was seven, and hopefully she still won't count that as her best day when she's 15 or 25 or 50, but the point is that it had that impact for her.

    If we're looking at commercial impact, Miley is right there. She was one of Disney's biggest cash cows in the 2000s. If they wanted to put up a photo of someone who was a modern icon that contemporary guests (read: children) might know, and not a historical one, that would easily be Miley over Annette in that context. I'd argue that brand equity was around way before Annette, as well - in the 1920s and 30s performers like Baby Peggy and Shirley Temple were marketing dreams.

    In the context of the discussion, though, whatever reasons might or might not exist for re-aligning the portrait area, I still feel that taking Miley off the wall due to her actions years after her Disney association - especially when those actions have NOT been criminal in nature at all - is not warranted.
    Fantastic post.

  9. #84

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    Re: Opera House: Miley VS. Annette

    Quote Originally Posted by explodingboy View Post
    Fantastic post.
    Thank you.
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