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  1. #76

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    Re: The New Market House...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seawolf View Post
    It isn't valid because you are using ad hominems in your statements. It's a fallacy to brush off others opinions by associating them with whiners and complainers.
    Ugh, please don't tell me what is and isn't valid. You are entitled to your opinion but you make it very one sided. You generalize that I'm associating all other negative opinions with whiners and complainers. Wrong. There are people that have very valid complaints and critiques and there are those that pick apart every detail, every change and condemn it. There are people that make over the top over dramatic statements. There are people that are so consumed with what is wrong that I'm not sure how they can every enjoy what is right. This board (along with others) has many people like that. I don't appreciate another board member telling me my opinion is wrong or a fallacy. You can disagree, that's the beauty of a good discussion, but telling me or anyone else that my belief is invalid is not in the spirit of good open discussion...with our without ad hominems or fallacies.

  2. #77

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    Re: The New Market House...

    Quote Originally Posted by stevek View Post
    Ugh, please don't tell me what is and isn't valid. You are entitled to your opinion but you make it very one sided. You generalize that I'm associating all other negative opinions with whiners and complainers. Wrong. There are people that have very valid complaints and critiques and there are those that pick apart every detail, every change and condemn it. There are people that make over the top over dramatic statements. There are people that are so consumed with what is wrong that I'm not sure how they can every enjoy what is right. This board (along with others) has many people like that. I don't appreciate another board member telling me my opinion is wrong or a fallacy. You can disagree, that's the beauty of a good discussion, but telling me or anyone else that my belief is invalid is not in the spirit of good open discussion...with our without ad hominems or fallacies.
    Deny and spin all you want, no one here is trying to say your opinion on Starbucks itself is wrong. Trying to associate those who have an opposing view to yours with whiners, complainers, and "people who can't enjoy what's right" isn't a valid argument. By the way, who exactly determines what's "right," you? I suggest looking up the definition of ad hominem because it's obvious you don't have the slightest idea what it means to have a fair and honest discussion without labeling others. In other words, don't try to describe our personalities, discuss the topic at hand and why we are incorrect in your mind. We have given a multitude of reasons in detail as to why the Starbucks is inadequately designed/themed and illogically placed on Main Street, now provide yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Westsider View Post
    Exactly.

    For an example of nostalgia gone rancid even closer to home, look what's become of Knott's Berry Farm in the areas that are still "original". Been to Mrs. Knott's Chicken Dinner Restaurant lately? It's like a bizarre cross between a nursing home, an old Elks Lodge, and a junior high school cafeteria circa 1978. And the cleanup crew called in sick the night before you went.
    There's a clear quality difference between what Walt Disney/WED designed in 1955 and the simple ordinary building the Knott's family decided upon back then. Not only that but can you honestly with a straight face tell me that the Knott's Chicken Dinner Restaurant is well maintained? Again, I'll give you the example of fine European architecture which is far older than the chicken house but are considered works of art since no expense and talent was spared, the same scenario on Disneyland's Main Street.

    Even if a refresh were necessary, that doesn't mean you strip away the spirit and heart of the original incantation. At the very least, build something even better, put the same amount of effort and attention to detail WED put into it in 1955.
    Last edited by Seawolf; 09-29-2013 at 11:56 AM.

  3. #78

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    Re: The New Market House...

    saw it firsthand yesterday. thumbs down. it is basically a queue and a counter.

  4. #79

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    Re: The New Market House...

    Ummm...I don't notice the aesthetics of a place until AFTER I've had my morning coffee.

    If folks visited Market House for the ambiance but didn't buy coffee, that's bad marketing. No one visits Starbucks for the ambiance but they do buy coffee.

    I think in this case it was important to get the coffee-selling space up and running as quickly as possible, which was done. We can always go back and tweak the design if need be. We can even contact Starbucks directly and ask them to work on it...

    I used to hop the train to New Orleans Square to get my coffee. Now I will be much more likely to walk down Main Street to the Starbucks and do something else. It will be interesting to see if Starbucks changes traffic patterns...

    Even in a restroom that's themed from the outside (Bugs Land) I still want modern plumbing.
    "Ignore the Chihuahua behind the curtain."

  5. #80

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    Re: The New Market House...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seawolf View Post
    Again, I'll give you the example of fine European architecture which is far older than the chicken house but are considered works of art since no expense and talent was spared, the same scenario on Disneyland's Main Street.

    Even if a refresh were necessary, that doesn't mean you strip away the spirit and heart of the original incantation. At the very least, build something even better, put the same amount of effort and attention to detail WED put into it in 1955.
    Yeah, gotta agree with this. Main Street has always been a beautiful area of Disneyland, and makes the company $$$ each year, even though it was built before a lot of the new execs were even born. If you build it right the first time, then you don't have to go back and rip stuff out (like with DCA 1.0). Main Street additions should be:

    1. Gorgeous, with no expense spared in terms of aesthetics and a lot of work to get the final design right (the Market House doesn't look "pretty" or "beautiful" to me, like the Jolly Holiday.)

    2. Functional.

    3. Adds to the story of the land.

    4. Unique, in terms of what the rest of the land offers, yet also be consistent with everything else in the given themed area.

    5. Iconic, if possible. The old Market House was probably featured in postcards/fan magazines . . . I don't think anybody is going to take a picture of the new Market House for those reasons.

    The Book Stop is nice, but it sure doesn't look right next to the new Market House.

    I blame Starbucks, all of their joints are *very* utilitarian, boring even. Who knows why the deal with Starbucks too so long, maybe Starbucks wanted their own design teams to do stuff like the Market House, but I bet it's part of the deal: Starbucks pays for the refurb, with some input from WDI such as, "You gotta keep the phones, we'll design a little overflow area."

    I don't know much about Starbucks and what they serve as I don't drink coffee, but the only stuff being sold in the Market House looks like Starbucks products, no more candy and other stuff . . . I think Starbucks has pretty much total control of what happens inside theming-wise. Look at the Dole Whip counter, they've had television screens with a Dole commercial in Adventureland! Sponsors get to push their product in ways that sometimes compromise the artistic effort in a land.

  6. #81

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    Re: The New Market House...

    Quote Originally Posted by DobbysCloset View Post
    If folks visited Market House for the ambiance but didn't buy coffee, that's bad marketing.
    Was this the case before the redo? I think not. There's no reason why you can't have both.

    No one visits Starbucks for the ambiance but they do buy coffee.
    Perhaps at any ordinary Starbucks you can find at every street corner, but this is not the case at Disneyland. People pay high prices and expect the exact opposite. The parks sole purpose is to immerse its guests from the time they enter the park until they exit. Having an inconstancy randomly in the middle of that illusion defeats the purpose as a whole.
    Last edited by Seawolf; 09-29-2013 at 02:50 PM.

  7. #82

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    Re: The New Market House...

    The many outweigh the few. The $ is mightier than some few nostalgites crying in their folders.

    so long as the lines and colors blend into the Main Street "land" and "story"...this place with thrive.

    not everyone enjoys Starbucks, but a great enough many do.
    I know my neigh and all of her friends were VERY excited to see it open... They didn't care about theming being accurate or perfect.
    not many do, or should.

  8. #83

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    Re: The New Market House...

    I can deal with the thematic inconsistencies between the counter room and the sitting room but for the love of God they need to re-staff some competent CMs to work the queues. It's been two visits now and both times there have been issues with the way the CM in charge of the queue help distribute people to available registers. If they can staff counter service CMs that have their 5 year pins why can't they at least staff a year pin CM from the Jolly Holiday Bakery to man the queues?
    Many Bothans died to bring you these fastpasses.

  9. #84

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    Re: The New Market House...

    I'm alright with the one in DCA, but a big NO on this one! The Court of Angels closing, then Avatarland in WDW, now more Starbucks in the parks... Stop it now! Stop destroying tradition Disney! If it ain't broke don't fix it!

  10. #85

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    Re: The New Market House...

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkwingdolt View Post
    They didn't care about theming being accurate or perfect.
    not many do, or should.
    The pursuit of perfection is what separates an average product from the extraordinary. Disneyland was once a place where going above and beyond was the norm, and was directly related to the success it has enjoyed all these years. If you think that providing average products or pandering to public trends are going to keep the bottom line growing, think again. You might as well be encouraging Disney to go bankrupt at this point because that is precisely where your type of thinking will lead them.

    Not everyone is cutout for being an artist or visionary, that's why those people (the general public) are the ones paying for the tickets, and rightfully not the ones in charge of creating such a special place like Disneyland.
    Last edited by Seawolf; 09-30-2013 at 03:23 AM.

  11. #86

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    Re: The New Market House...

    I wish someone could explain Starbucks to me...I like to drink black coffee and frankly Starbuck's is not very good. It is all about foofy, overpriced coffee drinks that need alot of additives tp make them taste good.

    The old coffee at DL was good all by itself. I'll just goto the Plaza, for mine.
    "These are a few of my favorite things"


  12. #87

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    Re: The New Market House...

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkwingdolt View Post
    The many outweigh the few. The $ is mightier than some few nostalgites crying in their folders.

    so long as the lines and colors blend into the Main Street "land" and "story"...this place with thrive.

    not everyone enjoys Starbucks, but a great enough many do.
    I know my neigh and all of her friends were VERY excited to see it open... They didn't care about theming being accurate or perfect.
    not many do, or should
    .
    If theme is of no importance, Magic Mountain does have cheap annual passes.
    “No worries, stay calm, one question. 
Do you happen to know how to fly this thing?”

  13. #88

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    Re: The New Market House...

    ^^ Exactly. There is a sect of "Disney fans" that give two flips about the theming, design, or historical integrity of the parks and only like Disney cause of the movies and characters. They need to stop going to the parks.

  14. #89

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    Re: The New Market House...

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneymike View Post
    If theme is of no importance, Magic Mountain does have cheap annual passes.
    Quote Originally Posted by JCSkipr79 View Post
    ^^ Exactly. There is a sect of "Disney fans" that give two flips about the theming, design, or historical integrity of the parks and only like Disney cause of the movies and characters. They need to stop going to the parks.
    Telling people they shouldn't go to the parks because their views on the parks differ from your own is just wrong. Be those reasons because you aren't obsessed enough, or too obsessed. We all love Disney here. We all have our reasons for it. If you would like your views and reasons respected, it helps to respect the views and reasons of others. And if others aren't respecting your views and beliefs on the matter, then be the bigger person.

    This site is about sharing a love of Disney. There is no test to prove who loves it more or better. There is no right or wrong, just opinions. Opinions which flow from our own personal likes, distastes and life experiences and history with the parks and the company.

    So can we please, everyone, just cut the double quoted fan nonsense? Can we quit claiming we're a better fan that others because we "get" theme? Or because we aren't so uptight? Or any other of the many ad hominems used increasingly over the past years? Can we all just love Disney together?

    Walt built Disneyland for everyone. Young, old, young at heart, those into detail, those into history and placemaking, those who don't care about any of that and just want to have fun. There is no right or wrong way to Disney Fan. Be it studying out the historical significance of minutiae and woodworking techniques used, or proper knots or be it grabbing a cup of Starbucks, having fun with family and friends riding rides. Just don't try to tell others that your fandom is better than theirs. It isn't... it's just different.

    (not directed at anybody in particular, just in general thoughts)

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  15. #90

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    Re: The New Market House...

    ^^ But said people are...ENCOURAGING TDA and TDO's bad decisions and some are even promoting these things and gush over them. Look at the new Walt Fake Mustache they're gonna start selling. There's actually "fans" who think it's "cute" to sell a fake piece of the founder of the Company that's dead.......

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