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  1. #1

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    How do you define "original idea"?

    So probably one of the top debates that I've seen happen here on Micechat is when someone says they want either a Marvel or Star Wars ride / land / park and then someone else says that they want something based on an original idea "the way that Disney used to." However, when Disneyland opened in 1955, almost every aspect of it apart from Main St. were based on previous Disney movies and TV shows. Adventureland was created based off of the success of Disney's "True-Life Adventure" series, and was even originally going to be called "True-Life Adventureland." Frontierland was based entirely off of the success of the Davy Crockett TV series. Fantasyland obviously was based off of Disney's feature-length animated films. Tomorrowland was probably the only land that didn't come from an already-existing TV show or movie (as far as I know). There were some futuristic movies and ideas that were presented on the Sunday Night Disneyland TV show (later The Wonderful World of Color) as way to promote the park while it was being built, but to my knowledge, there were no successful TV shows or movies that inspired Tomorrowland the way that there were for all of the other lands.

    So are the lands and rides that are based off of existing Disney franchises "original" because they were created by Disney and not purchased from another company? If not, then Disney has never been all that original. Let's go further and look at some of the rides:

    Adventureland
    Jungle Cruise - True-Life Adventures
    Swiss Family Treehouse - Swiss Family Robinson

    Frontierland
    Shooting Gallery - Original?
    Mark Twain - Original?
    Davy Crockett's Explorer Canoes - Davy Crockett series
    Golden Horseshoe - Original?

    Fantasyland
    Mr. Toad's Wild Ride - The Adventures of Ichabod & Mr. Toad
    Peter Pan's Flight - Disney's Peter Pan
    Snow White's Scary Adventures - Disney's Snow White
    Pinnochio - Disney's Pinnochio
    King Arthur's Carousel - Disney's Sleeping Beauty
    Mad Tea Party - Disney's Alice in Wonderland
    Alice in Wonderland - Disney's Alice in Wonderland
    Casey Jr. Circus Train - Disney's Dumbo
    Storybook Land Canal Boats - Original?

    Tomorrowland - All original?

    My personal opinion is that there is nothing truely original, but I do like rides that are not based on specific movies. Pirates of the Caribbean can be considered original or not, because there certainly were plenty of pirate movies before that was built, but the ride itself is not based on any one movie and none of the characters in the ride are supposed to represent characters from any one movie (pre-Johnny Depp). Same with Haunted Mansion, Jungle Cruise, Space Mountain, Big Thunder and Soarin' Over California. However, there are an equal number of rides that I love that are based on specific movies or TV shows. Rides like Indiana Jones, Star Tours, Splash Mountain, Tower of Terror, and Radiator Springs Racers.

    So then what it comes down to for me is that a good ride is a good ride, and I don't really care that much whether that ride is based on an existing movie or TV show. So my vote goes for (1) any ride ("original" or not) that fits within the existing theme of the park and the land that it is in, (2) that is enjoyable enough that I am willing to wait at least 30 minutes in line to ride it and (3) that never gets old no matter how many times I ride it. If Disney is able to invest more money into a ride (and theoretically make it that much more awesome) because it's based on a franchise like Marvel or Star Wars, then I'm all for it, as long as it fits the theme of the land and the park that it's located in.
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  2. #2

    • I'm from Canada eh!
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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    Great question, one that I have posed many times in the past. However, I have had my own question answered by the Addition of Mystic Manor in HK DL. The Genre of the idea is the same, but the way they presented it was original. I think that is what is missing at the DL parks now.

  3. #3

    • Nutty about Disney parks
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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    I wish that Disney would stop investing into franchise "lands". Attractions don't bother me so much but devoting a huge chunk of land to one movie (or in the particular case of DCA, one studio) only gives the park in question less variety. I want numerous properties (not just a select few) to be represented in each park (along with original ideas). I just get tired of everything new in the parks being the 3 Ps (Princesses, Pirates, Pixar). I'm pretty sure that the amount of Disney films and owned properties are not limited to those threes.

  4. #4

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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    Quote Originally Posted by toonaspie View Post
    ...I just get tired of everything new in the parks being the 3 Ps (Princesses, Pirates, Pixar). I'm pretty sure that the amount of Disney films and owned properties are not limited to those threes.
    No problem. Disney's Top Tier 3 is soon to be their Fantastic Franchise 5 -- Princesses, Pirates, Pixar, StarWars and Superheroes.

    Everything your kids have on your home video shelf, you can now pay through the nose to experience in person.

    With crowds.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  5. #5

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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    I think Knott's Berry Farm is the only local park to not have any rides based on movies (though I haven't been there in years, but I can't think of any off the top of my head). Universal and Six flags both have lots of rides based on movies.

  6. #6

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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    In the context of attractions in the parks... I would define "original idea" as not based on or related to a Disney Movie or property.

    The fact that Disneyland was built on said movies and properties is not the point. In the past 20 years there are far too few Haunted Mansions, Pirates of the Caribbeans, Big Thunder Mountains, Space Mountains - and way too many Buzz Lightyear Astro Blasters, Little Mermaids, Cars Lands, and Finding Nemo's Submarine Voyages. Way too many attractions based on extant properties than not.

    I would like to see from this point on, one original attraction for every two based on current properties. Am I against non-original (current property based) attractions? Not at all. I would just like to see a moratorium or maybe a definite time between the last time the property was remade, expanded, serialized, or a sequel made and when it appears in the park. I think 15 to 20 years would be sufficient. Little Mermaid would qualify, and that is OK. Buzz Lightyear...not so much, as there is a three plus sequel train to the original idea.

    I also like that the original park attractions based on Disney animations were housed in Fantasyland, Davy Crockett in Frontierland, etc. What is not good is Buzz and Nemo in TOMORROWLAND. Tomorrowland would of course have to be exempt from the 15 to 20 year moratorium on current properties related attractions. It would be difficult to have a property that old (with no sequels) still be a "Tomorrow" focused attraction. Current properties - and yes Star Wars and Marvel specificly are really more "Todayland" than having a vision of our future as a basis for an attraction. Make Tomorrowland about what is likely in the future. Not the near future of the next couple of years, but at least 25 years out. Expand Fantasyland. This would allow new attractions for properties like Beauty and the Beast.

    Disneyland and to some extent DCA, is less well defined land-wise than ever before. It is becoming a swirly, mushy, ill-defined bunch of places to park new attractions based on existing properties rather than finding a well-defined place for them. I support Cars Land because it took a current property and placed it in a totally new place rather than plopping a RCR in Tomorrowland.

    However, I would still like to see MORE attractions NOT based on current properties. In other words - Original Ideas.







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  7. #7

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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    ^ This. Very well said.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  8. #8

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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    As a point of order - any list of the attractions opened between DCA and Disneyland in the past 20 years *does* contain a large amount of non-IP branded attractions.

    DCA in it's entirety at opening was to a large extent non-branded. In fact, beyond Triton's Carousel and Muppetvision there wasn't any brand-based theme (OK, not much theme at all, but it's still valid).

    I mainly mention this because at the time of opening, one of the major complaints against DCA was that it *did not* contain Disney-IP branded rides and offerings.
    Woo! Spring is coming!

  9. #9

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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    An Original idea is say the legend of Pirates...you then make a ride with that shows how they used to live....no tie ins to movies or TV directly though something like the Jungle cruise or matterhorn are "based" off a movie just the idea not in your face advertisement

  10. #10

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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    As a point of order - any list of the attractions opened between DCA and Disneyland in the past 20 years *does* contain a large amount of non-IP branded attractions.

    DCA in it's entirety at opening was to a large extent non-branded. In fact, beyond Triton's Carousel and Muppetvision there wasn't any brand-based theme (OK, not much theme at all, but it's still valid).

    I mainly mention this because at the time of opening, one of the major complaints against DCA was that it *did not* contain Disney-IP branded rides and offerings.
    Point taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by JerrodDRagon View Post
    An Original idea is say the legend of Pirates...you then make a ride with that shows how they used to live....no tie ins to movies or TV directly though something like the Jungle cruise or matterhorn are "based" off a movie just the idea not in your face advertisement
    EXACTLY - If you have to think of the relationship it could count as original. If it is painfully obvious to an 8 year-old what movie it is from, then it would not be "original."







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  11. #11

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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    Well, every idea is inspired by something that already exists. But in terms of Disney theme parks, an "original" idea to me simply means not based off a movie or franchise brand/characters.


    As someone on this board once pointed out (I think it was Mr. Wiggins), Walt saw the popularity of Davy Crockett and built Frontierland, a blank canvas for a world of ideas inspired by the Old West. He didn't build Davy Crockett Land.

  12. #12

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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    As a point of order - any list of the attractions opened between DCA and Disneyland in the past 20 years *does* contain a large amount of non-IP branded attractions.

    DCA in it's entirety at opening was to a large extent non-branded. In fact, beyond Triton's Carousel and Muppetvision there wasn't any brand-based theme (OK, not much theme at all, but it's still valid).

    I mainly mention this because at the time of opening, one of the major complaints against DCA was that it *did not* contain Disney-IP branded rides and offerings.
    It is my understanding that people complained that it wasn't "Disney" enough, really meaning it lacked the outstanding quality Disney is (was?) known for, and Disney took it to mean that people wanted Disney characters all over the place. They also thought that people didn't like their crappy DCA offerings because the rides didn't have Disney characters all over them, rather than make the connection that the rides were unpopular because they just flat out sucked.

  13. #13

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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diznygrl View Post
    It is my understanding that people complained that it wasn't "Disney" enough, really meaning it lacked the outstanding quality Disney is (was?) known for, and Disney took it to mean that people wanted Disney characters all over the place. They also thought that people didn't like their crappy DCA offerings because the rides didn't have Disney characters all over them, rather than make the connection that the rides were unpopular because they just flat out sucked.
    The problem I have with that view is that for the most part the roster's still there - the subtractions are few. Superstar got yanked, Golden Dreams was put to sleep, beyond that the basic structure is still there and yet now the park's mostly OK in the public view. OK enough that it's pulling attendance off Disneyland if you believe reports here.

    If the problem were in the rides themselves, there would have had to have been a lot more replacing done then there has been. IMO, past the replacement/added rides the DCA effort HAS basically been "slap a few characters on it and call it good" - but people still love the rebuilt Orange Stinger for the rebuild, and I don't hear many people calling for Goofy's Sky School to be returned to it's previous incarnation.
    Woo! Spring is coming!

  14. #14

    • Nutty about Disney parks
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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    The two main things that scared the Disney suits away from original attractions were the failure of DCA's original attractions when they first opened and Potterland.

    It's a shame though because Universal's whole gimmick is about movie franchising. Disney is suppose to be about storytelling.
    Last edited by toonaspie; 10-11-2013 at 04:11 PM.

  15. #15

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    Re: How do you define "original idea"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diznygrl View Post
    It is my understanding that people complained that it wasn't "Disney" enough, really meaning it lacked the outstanding quality Disney is (was?) known for, and Disney took it to mean that people wanted Disney characters all over the place. They also thought that people didn't like their crappy DCA offerings because the rides didn't have Disney characters all over them, rather than make the connection that the rides were unpopular because they just flat out sucked.
    Exactly. The term "Disney" when applied to Disneyland once meant innovative, imaginative, creative and unique. Now it means character brands -- especially to the people running Disney.

    To the point of the OP, "original" at Disneyland means a ride, shop or restaurant that is not a promotion for a Disney brand. Matterhorn Bobsleds and Jungle Cruise do not promote Disney brands, while Finding Nemo Submarines, Buzz Lightyear, Star Tours and the Pirates and Small World character overlays do. The Mark Twain and Sailing Ship Columbia do not promote Disney brands, while Winnie the Pooh and Tom Sawyer Island pirates overlay do. The Blue Bayou Restaurant and Cafe Orleans do not promote Disney brands, while Jolly Holiday does. The Tahitian Terrace restaurant did not promote Disney brands, Aladdin's Oasis did.

    From 1955 to 1985, the number of rides, shops and restaurants that promoted Disney brands were in the vast minority of the total that Disneyland offered, and were confined primarily to Fantasyland. After the advent of the Eisner regime in 1985, brand promotion -- primarily cartoon brands aimed at the youth demographic -- is virtually all that Disney Corp has added to Disneyland.

    From 1955 to 1985, the company positioned Disneyland as its own brand. After 1985, it positioned Disneyland as a marketing platform for the promotion of other brands and film franchises.

    The repositioning of Disneyland as a brand marketing mall that you pay to enter was the brainchild of Michael Eisner. It is a business model that continues to this day under Eisner's ex-lieutenant and hand picked successor Bob Iger, and Eisner's ex-Chief Financial Officer Tom Staggs.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


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