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  1. #46

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nirya View Post
    This is a bit off-topic, but just a question: Why do so many here prop up Universal Creative, who's recent additions to their parks have all been IP-based, as a symbol of creativity, while lambasting Disney for doing the same thing with their IPs? Yes, I understand WWHP and Transformers have been good, but Cars Land has also been good, so why are so many instantly hating on any rumor coming out of Burbank?
    Because that is Universal's business. Universal Studios is supposed to be about riding the movies. That was their slogan back in the day. Disney is supposed to be better then Universal, and supposed to have original concepts for their rides that don't need to rely on the success of a film franchise in order to bring people into their parks. Basically Disney is copying Universal (intentionally or not) rather then "being" Disney.
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  2. #47

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Two beautiful things about Uni Creative:

    1. They've upped the QUALITY
    2. They are not procrastinators - Diagon Alley will be up and running in 2014. If that was Disney doing it, it would take twice as long, or longer.
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    Dear Peoplemover Fans, If you want to see a new attraction that at least mimics the 1967 Peoplemover in a future Tomorrowland remodel, you need to write to the powers-that-be, and let them know. If you don't - Then the next time Tomorrowland is remodeled, you will see a land barren of any "Peoplemover" type attraction.

  3. #48

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Quote Originally Posted by Big D View Post
    Because that is Universal's business. Universal Studios is supposed to be about riding the movies. That was their slogan back in the day. Disney is supposed to be better then Universal, and supposed to have original concepts for their rides that don't need to rely on the success of a film franchise in order to bring people into their parks. Basically Disney is copying Universal (intentionally or not) rather then "being" Disney.
    I couldn't agree more. Disney is following the leader instead of being the leader.




  4. #49

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Quote Originally Posted by Not My Real Name View Post

    People want to see the characters. I was in DL one time and I talked to this family while waiting in line for Splash and they wanted to know the best place to see the characters in "person." I told them to go to Fantasyland and Toontown.

    People want to see the characters. As long as the attraction is of high quality and not too short, I'll like them as much as I like POTC or HM. Splash is a perfect example of a character-driven ride that is of high quality and good length. (One of my complaints about Mermaid is that it's too short.) It's unlike any other log ride on the planet.

    But I would still like to see a ride based on an original idea. I think the last one is Everest and I haven't been to DAK yet or any overseas park. If I get my degree in Astronomy....
    Best educated guess:
    Some people want to see the characters. Not all. After your run-in with the people in line for Splash Mountain. If you stood there for a full hour ... and waded through 500 people going through (or more) ... I bet they all will have varied reactions ... on whether their Disneyland trip was contingent on the characters, or not.
    MY SIGNATURE:
    Dear Peoplemover Fans, If you want to see a new attraction that at least mimics the 1967 Peoplemover in a future Tomorrowland remodel, you need to write to the powers-that-be, and let them know. If you don't - Then the next time Tomorrowland is remodeled, you will see a land barren of any "Peoplemover" type attraction.

  5. #50

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Quote Originally Posted by Big D View Post
    Basically Disney is copying Universal (intentionally or not) rather then "being" Disney.
    Exactly. Unfortunately, it's intentional: Michael Eisner mandated that "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides" so many times that it's even on one of Disney's videos about the park.

    His vision for Disneyland, combined with that of his chosen Disneyland President, Paul Pressler, that every square foot of a Disney theme park should be considered as retail space that must earn a double-digit profit, are the core operating philosophies followed to this day by the management team that Eisner trained and chose as his successors -- especially by Disney Parks & Resorts President Tom Staggs, Eisner's Chief Financial Officer and Strategic Planning guru, and Bob Iger, his longtime lieutenant.


    Quote Originally Posted by frollofan View Post
    Disney is following the leader instead of being the leader.
    Yep. And it's getting more obvious every year.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 10-17-2013 at 04:30 PM.
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  6. #51

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Characters- not worth my time. I look at them as I pass by onto the attractions.
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  7. #52

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomorrowland_1967 View Post
    Two beautiful things about Uni Creative:

    1. They've upped the QUALITY
    2. They are not procrastinators - Diagon Alley will be up and running in 2014. If that was Disney doing it, it would take twice as long, or longer.
    I'd add another point to that:

    3. Uni hired as Disney fired. Disney Imagineering took a massive hit with the regressive Harvard MBA policies they adopted under mid to late Eisner tenancy, and all of those highly creative and very highly trained people found new places to go. On the one hand, Disney's output since then has been... mixed. On the other hand, everyone *else's* output has been radically elevated if they're willing to meet the price. Previously it would be hard to find any equivalent talent pool compared to Imagineering. Nowadays I fear that could not remotely be true.
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  8. #53

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Quote Originally Posted by Big D View Post
    Because that is Universal's business. Universal Studios is supposed to be about riding the movies. That was their slogan back in the day. Disney is supposed to be better then Universal, and supposed to have original concepts for their rides that don't need to rely on the success of a film franchise in order to bring people into their parks. Basically Disney is copying Universal (intentionally or not) rather then "being" Disney.
    Could not have said it better.
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Do you happen to know how to fly this thing?”

  9. #54

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Quote Originally Posted by Not My Real Name View Post
    I recall that one of the complaints about the new EPCOT was that it didn't have any characters in it and that's why now Mulan is in China and Nemo is in The Seas and Alice is in Great Britain and Pinocchio is in Italy and Mickey and Minnie are in the American Adventure and so on. It was repeated a couple of years ago with small world.

    People want to see the characters.

    But.... everywhere???? I mean, isn't there more to imagination than just characters? Lots of places you can go to see them... they don't have to invade every square inch of every park...
    I pledge allegiance to the Earth, one planet, many gods, and to the universe in which she spins.

  10. #55

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    His vision for Disneyland, combined with that of his chosen Disneyland President, Paul Pressler, that every square foot of a Disney theme park should be considered as retail space that must earn a double-digit profit, are the core operating philosophies followed to this day by the management team that Eisner trained and chose as his successors -- especially by Disney Parks & Resorts President Tom Staggs, Eisner's Chief Financial Officer and Strategic Planning guru, and Bob Iger, his longtime lieutenant.
    You say this like it is a bad thing. But Disneyland is no museum or church; it is a business. Notwithstanding all the sanctification of the Disney brand that happens here, that is essentially what you have, a business owned by shareholders who want to make a profit.

    (I will even dare say that the motives of most of Disney's consumers are equally impure. In short, most are not interested in preservation or in worshiping the Disney gods. They just want to have fun and buy Disney stuff.)

  11. #56

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    I use spreadsheets all the time, and it's usually bad business to do everything on gut feel. In the case of capex expansion or replacement, the board is going to want to know the incremental revenue that cash will generate. That incremental revenue needs to be enough to flag the changes as a success or a failure. What I don't get from your post is what this has to do with Disney being creative. Putting in a franchise property is not a sure thing either. Sure, Harry Potter worked out very well, but I don't think we'll see Disney put in Fifty Shades into their park. It still needs to be kids appropriate.

    What type of attractions are you looking for?

  12. #57

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    I'd add another point to that:

    3. Uni hired as Disney fired. Disney Imagineering took a massive hit with the regressive Harvard MBA policies they adopted under mid to late Eisner tenancy, and all of those highly creative and very highly trained people found new places to go. On the one hand, Disney's output since then has been... mixed. On the other hand, everyone *else's* output has been radically elevated if they're willing to meet the price. Previously it would be hard to find any equivalent talent pool compared to Imagineering. Nowadays I fear that could not remotely be true.
    This is very true. They both use the same consultants who are mostly ex-imagineers. Disney does still do some original high end work in-house. But they hire out a lot of work these days and operate more like Uni Creative as a project manager and hire on consultants for a lot of the design, engineering and production work. In reality, it's not surprising that Uni is doing good work, they hire many of the best Imagineers from the 70's and 80's who now operate their own design firms and are now at the height of their careers and talent.
    The Mickey audience is not made up of people; it has no racial, national, political, religious or social differences or affiliations; the Mickey audience is made up of parts of people, of that deathless, precious, ageless, absolutely primitive remnant of something in every world-wracked human being which makes us play with children’s toys and laugh without self-consciousness at silly things, and sing in bathtubs, and dream and believe that our babies are uniquely beautiful. You know…the Mickey in us.
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  13. #58

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Quote Originally Posted by DL714 View Post
    You say this like it is a bad thing. But Disneyland is no museum or church; it is a business. Notwithstanding all the sanctification of the Disney brand that happens here, that is essentially what you have, a business owned by shareholders who want to make a profit.

    (I will even dare say that the motives of most of Disney's consumers are equally impure. In short, most are not interested in preservation or in worshiping the Disney gods. They just want to have fun and buy Disney stuff.)
    This is obviously true, but Disney is an entertainment company, not an oil company or a steel company. Creativity and good taste are an essential part of success in this business. Disney is doing well now by selling other people's creativity, but it's unclear that that strategy will work forever. Perhaps it will, simply due to their massive size and ability to acquire IP's at huge prices. But several times in Disney's history it has shown it can slip into a state of simply losing touch with the audience, and when that happens, the company starts to deteriorate really quickly. Their current strategy is primarily working because they've left the creatives in charge at Pixar and Marvel. But that may not last, and when the business people think they can run those divisions better, they'll be in big trouble. The additional problem with this model is that as Disney becomes more focused on IP acquisition and exploitation, they move their business focus away from actually creating entertainment directly. Which means that there are very few people in the higher corporate structure who come from the entertainment side of things. And the few who do mostly come from TV networks, where they're not used to creating things, they're used to buying IP's and exploiting them. The reality is that Disney's own internal productions seem to be mostly massive failures, while Pixar and Marvel keep churning out hits. That says it all.
    The Mickey audience is not made up of people; it has no racial, national, political, religious or social differences or affiliations; the Mickey audience is made up of parts of people, of that deathless, precious, ageless, absolutely primitive remnant of something in every world-wracked human being which makes us play with children’s toys and laugh without self-consciousness at silly things, and sing in bathtubs, and dream and believe that our babies are uniquely beautiful. You know…the Mickey in us.
    -Walt Disney

  14. #59

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Even when it's original, it isn't always purely born from creative ambition and ideas. A lot of times its the business side of the company saying, we ran all these focus groups and had all these meetings and think you should build a park about California because tourists are interested in California. Or we ran the focus group and decided Animal Kingdom needs a big thrill ride. The challenge for creatives at imagineering is to take that corporate calculation and turn it into a great theme park or attraction. Sometimes what you're starting off with is so limited and uninspired, like "California," that there isn't much that can be done. On top of that, there's a very limited budget, and sometimes the creatives are in agreement with their mandate so they don't challenge it (Steve Davison says he feels strongly about incorporating Disney characters in the parks. That's why World of Color is a gorgeous commercial).

    Other times there's more money and space for creativity, and you get Expedition Everest, the last example of a successful original E-ticket I can think of. When the business side's considerations get out of the way almost entirely, you get Tokyo DisneySea. And a yeti that works.

    In the future, it'll be interesting to see how much Iger's Shanghai Disneyland will be about original storytelling vs. corporate cross-promotion because building a whole park on the principle of marketing franchises is more problematic, but the Marvel park rumors show that's what might be next.
    Last edited by WDWorldly; 10-18-2013 at 06:04 AM.

  15. #60

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    Re: Why originanlity is going to be severly limited at DL (for the time being)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    As much as Disney's internal groupthink cherishes that myth, it's not even remotely what happened with DCA.
    It is exactly what happened with DCA. Since they opened the Fun Wheel and the sings, the fan complaints about those rides have all but ceased even here on MiceChat. Paradise Pier, long seen as the antithesis of Walt's dream hardly gets a mention these days. The new public opinion of DCA as a huge success comes right along with a giant Mickey face plastered on a ferris wheel.


    That "story" is more Eisner-era internal Disney mythology.
    It is certainly possible it was made up, but it wasn't from Eisner. I don't recall exactly where the story came from and I don't have my books on hand so I will have to look it up. Marty Sklar has been know to spread complete lies ( and obviously not one of Eisner's men)

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