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  1. #151

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    The problem with the AP program is that it leads to uncontrollable hordes that lead to spikes in operational drains vs the revenue generated for that period. The no blackout APs keep Disney from being able to keep a crowd reasonable when there is a spike in interest. So you get this huge drain on resources... and no real boost in revenue. Because your revenue was already fixed long before. The secondary problem is people who use it 'too much' and Disney leaves money on the table. That's a pricing problem that Disney could solve with other forms besides 'all you can eat' that would find a balance between what the customer feels is cheap enough to get them in the gate.. but not too cheap that Disney doesn't monetize the event.
    Arguing on Disney's behalf to earn even more money from people is disturbing. I find it unconvincing. It doesn't guarrantee the results that you prefer to be done for Disney.

    "uncontrollable hordes"
    That's a description I never saw coming. Almost like describing people as zombies.

    Theme parks run in the model that you don't turn people away.

    You immediate delve in the "huge drain on resources". I guess Disney must conserve their resources so smaller crowds are better managed and big crowds fend for themselves. Unless, of course, they know what they are doing and the resources are deployed correctly.

    People are using their APs exactly as intended. The idea of not using an AP on a non-blockout date is the equivalent of the guest giving away their money to Disney when they haven't realized the full potential of the ticket.

  2. #152

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    In all honesty, if we (my family and I) had an AP, we'd spend every week-end we could (and some Friday nights) at DL. So, there's that. I suppose Disney is tremendously happy about earning hundreds and hundreds of dollars from people that haven't even visited the parks, but I assume that someday people will realize this is not in the best interest for everyone invovled.

    Then again, the park has gone on for 58 years now and it's stronger than ever, so I guess the businessmen are doing something right.

  3. #153

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by fjhuerta View Post
    Then again, the park has gone on for 58 years now and it's stronger than ever, so I guess the businessmen are doing something right.
    I suppose they are (at least to their stock holders).

    From what I hear, back before McDonalds was "doing something right" (so to speak) they actually made a really good hamburger and an outstanding ice cream shake.

    MTV is now in 85% of American homes......but ask anyone who watched it back in the mid 1980's when they were barely in 15% of homes if it is really still "MTV" now....

    Oregon's largest mall once boasted an ice rink and a food court that was both charming and awesome at the same time...........now the ice rink is gone, the food court is charmless and yet the mall has never been more crowded.
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  4. #154

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    But... adding capacity to a ticketed event/park that is already running close to capacity *is* monetizing the addition
    No it's not - doing this drives margins down because you've increased your overhead/costs by adding more attractions/overhead but not increased the price you're selling it for. Adding another park and letting the same APs use it for the same price they got 2 parks drives your margins down and makes the whole situation worse.

    More bodies is good to drive revenue... because your costs tend to peak (run at full capacity) and then you just want more bodies in to drive more revenue for that day. The problem is when those bodies didn't pay anything more for that new capacity... you're not driving revenue at that point, you've just increased your running cost without any revenue boost.

    Building a third gate without changing the current AP model would be suicide. I would not be surprised if Disney actually tries to go back to the separate AP entitlements for DCA vs DLR now that DCA is on it's feet.
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    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  5. #155

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    Arguing on Disney's behalf to earn even more money from people is disturbing. I find it unconvincing. It doesn't guarrantee the results that you prefer to be done for Disney.
    Increasing margins will not guarantee Disney will reinvest in the park - certainly. But what you can guarantee is if margins shrink, so does willingness to spend to improve or maintain the product (See EuroDisney)

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    "uncontrollable hordes" [/B][/I]That's a description I never saw coming. Almost like describing people as zombies.
    I'm sure at times Park Ops feels like that when the unstoppable flood of AP holders descends on the park pushing all it's infrastructure to the limit.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    Theme parks run in the model that you don't turn people away.
    No, businesses that chase $$ instead of a specific product experience operate on turn no one away. Look at Discovery Cove - they operate on a model of capped capacity to ensure a specific experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    You immediate delve in the "huge drain on resources". I guess Disney must conserve their resources so smaller crowds are better managed and big crowds fend for themselves. Unless, of course, they know what they are doing and the resources are deployed correctly.
    When Disney has to do things like bus people in.. run additional shuttles from remote lots.. increase staff for crowd control.. etc.. these are all higher costs that eat at Disney's margin. Costs that are not offset by higher gate receipts. Having to staff up for a complete onslaught on APs for a new attraction opening drives costs way up.. for an event they aren't even monetizing because the AP holders are getting in for free that day compared to another day. The need to staff up for these huge spikes without any matching spike in revenue = huge costs for Disney.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    People are using their APs exactly as intended. The idea of not using an AP on a non-blockout date is the equivalent of the guest giving away their money to Disney when they haven't realized the full potential of the ticket.
    Which is exactly why the 'all you can eat' pass is so hard on Disney. Their costs go way up per AP holder if a bunch of AP holders all decide to show up at the same time.. and they have no way of preventing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  6. #156

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    Arguing on Disney's behalf to earn even more money from people is disturbing. I find it unconvincing. It doesn't guarrantee the results that you prefer to be done for Disney.

    "uncontrollable hordes"
    That's a description I never saw coming. Almost like describing people as zombies.
    I think he is referring to them as a political subdivision of central Asian nomads, which, clearly, are not zombies.
    You owe every Asian nomad you meet an apology. Pray they don't ignore you and start eating your brain.
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  7. #157

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    I agree that DCA's AP revenue needs to be more directly monetized. It has hidden for too long by TDA executives.

    So, at $700 for a two-park PAP, how about $500 for DL, $300 for DCA?
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  8. #158

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    No it's not - doing this drives margins down because you've increased your overhead/costs by adding more attractions/overhead but not increased the price you're selling it for. Adding another park and letting the same APs use it for the same price they got 2 parks drives your margins down and makes the whole situation worse.

    More bodies is good to drive revenue... because your costs tend to peak (run at full capacity) and then you just want more bodies in to drive more revenue for that day. The problem is when those bodies didn't pay anything more for that new capacity... you're not driving revenue at that point, you've just increased your running cost without any revenue boost.

    Building a third gate without changing the current AP model would be suicide. I would not be surprised if Disney actually tries to go back to the separate AP entitlements for DCA vs DLR now that DCA is on it's feet.
    You're assuming attendance would be flat. So far, with pretty much every addition they've made to the park, that has not been the case. Disney has managed so far to pretty directly increase attendance by adding. Subtracting the APs while adding material WOULD be suicidal - but that's not what they've done. What they've done is add rides which adds attendance which increases the amount of money flowing into Disney.
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  9. #159

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    It's just not a good deal for the consumer. Too expensive and too crowded. Bad deal. That's the bottom line.

  10. #160

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    You're assuming attendance would be flat
    No, I'm assuming the bulk of the addition are AP clicks - which are extremely cheap vs a ticket sale. People say 'add capacity' - because they are upset over the crowding.. crowding fueled by APs. Adding capacity so you can fit more APs in... is moving the margin needle in the WRONG direction. Adding APs at the wrong ratio is bad enough.. doing that AND boosting your baseline operational costs substantially? That would really hurt the bottom line... which ultimately hurts one's interest in investing in the parks. The parks need to be high margin if people want the 'disney touches' in customer service, upkeep, detail, etc.

    You say 'they've added attendance' - all you know is how many gate clicks there are.. you don't know how many of those were actual 'new revenue' customers. Now, given DCA's reboot, I would speculate that their recent increases are a lot stronger in the 'new revenue' customers than it was due to increased visits by AP holders. But this was an incremental add. High in capital costs, but not really a game changer in operational costs.

    Adding an entirely new park is night and day for that.. and includes a HUGE overhead (both front and back of house) that needs to be paid for every single day. You wouldn't succeed doing all of that and then letting 50%+ of your users in for 'free' because they already had an AP to DLR. A new park would need to monetized to be sustainable. WDW did it because of the theory of increasing the length of stay, getting the hotel/food dollars, and the lower percentage of AP vs ticket holders. DLR is a different beast in that respect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  11. #161

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    So, would a single (say $70 ticket) and no APs at all would control the crowding problem at DL, while mantaining a higher standard of quality?

  12. #162

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by fjhuerta View Post
    So, would a single (say $70 ticket) and no APs at all would control the crowding problem at DL, while mantaining a higher standard of quality?
    I'm afraid for me, a single day ticket of that cost would price me out of Disneyland.

    I travel from Chicago to visit Disneyland, and an Annual Pass allows me to come more often. I used my Deluxe Pass on 13 days this past year, thus bringing my cost per day, way down.


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  13. #163

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    No, businesses that chase $$ instead of a specific product experience operate on turn no one away. Look at Discovery Cove - they operate on a model of capped capacity to ensure a specific experience.
    Discovery Cove is a once in a lifetime experience. How often do you want to swim with the dolphins? You do it once and that's it.

    Disney has a comparable model. Disney caps the Halloween Party events. Do you want to make every Disney trip subject to reservations? It can be done.

    When Disney has to do things like bus people in.. run additional shuttles from remote lots.. increase staff for crowd control.. etc.. these are all higher costs that eat at Disney's margin. Costs that are not offset by higher gate receipts. Having to staff up for a complete onslaught on APs for a new attraction opening drives costs way up.. for an event they aren't even monetizing because the AP holders are getting in for free that day compared to another day. The need to staff up for these huge spikes without any matching spike in revenue = huge costs for Disney.
    These are not daily events. It is only when they expect extremely high crowds at specific times. Why do you make it seem like they can't afford it? Higher attendance means more revenue for that day and they already planned for it. The budget for operations was already planned. Disney had a "horde" of casual part timers that need hours. Why not spend the money? Disney can't be the business that turns away business. It is absolutely ridiculous that we are debating whether Disney is incapable of serving large crowds.

    Every single day, Disney is signing up new APs. You seen the lines for AP processing. This is new revenue that you say Disney should refuse. It is the $300-$600 that should be refused on a daily basis since, of course, Disney is "losing" money on the APs. It should be noted that on a daily basis, many APs are expired as well and need to be renewed. Income from APs are revenue on a daily basis.

    Which is exactly why the 'all you can eat' pass is so hard on Disney. Their costs go way up per AP holder if a bunch of AP holders all decide to show up at the same time.. and they have no way of preventing it.
    They aren't showing "all" up on a daily basis. Only a fraction. Many come once a month or less. There are block out days for most passes.

  14. #164

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Adding an entirely new park is night and day for that.. and includes a HUGE overhead (both front and back of house) that needs to be paid for every single day. You wouldn't succeed doing all of that and then letting 50%+ of your users in for 'free' because they already had an AP to DLR. A new park would need to monetized to be sustainable. WDW did it because of the theory of increasing the length of stay, getting the hotel/food dollars, and the lower percentage of AP vs ticket holders. DLR is a different beast in that respect.
    You do realize that a multiple park model means multi-day park passes. This is how Disney can afford to maintain 2 parks or more. WDW's 4 parks means they are selling quite a lot of 4 day or longer passes. Currently, I am sure Disneyland has topped out at 2 or 3 day passes.

    You might ask how does Disney monetize a multi-park structure with APs. How can they generate more money from 3 parks or more. Why not look at WDW with their AP system? Aren't they at least $100 more than Disneyland's APs? No, they are $300 more than Disneyland's cheapest AP!!!

    WDW's Annual Pass is $609!!! It gets better. The Premium Annual Pass is $729!!!

    They do have a Florida resident's Annual Pass. $464, no blockout days and free parking. The Premium pass is $584.

    I am sure when a 3rd Disney park appears in Anaheim, the Annual Pass will start out at $400 instead of $279 for the cheapest pass.
    Last edited by StevenW; 10-25-2013 at 07:42 AM.

  15. #165

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Don't know the exact numbers, but if you block out every APer, the park would be almost empty.

    Especially now.


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