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  1. #166

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    Discovery Cove is a once in a lifetime experience. How often do you want to swim with the dolphins? You do it once and that's it.

    Disney has a comparable model. Disney caps the Halloween Party events. Do you want to make every Disney trip subject to reservations? It can be done.
    You're switching constraints... The parties are relevant to this discussion because 'everyone pays to get in' - no 'freebies' like they have every day with APs. Disney can monetize all the extra effort.

    You keep suggesting I'm telling Disney to turn away business. No, I'm telling Disney to monetize their admissions vs taking the sweetheart deal up front because the deal breaks down. Stop promising 'all you can eat' and instead monetize actual usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    These are not daily events. It is only when they expect extremely high crowds at specific times. Why do you make it seem like they can't afford it? Higher attendance means more revenue for that day and they already planned for it
    These problems go much deeper than 'not daily events'. The visiting patterns this 'free on demand' type of access propagates all throughout the park operations. From how many parking spots the property needs, to staffing parking/trams, to turnstyles, crowd control, and more. And higher attendance doesn't mean 'more revenue' when those people don't pay to get in, don't eat in the park, nor buy stuff that visit. They are drains on the infrastructure of the park.

    When someone can casually come in and just hang out from 5-9pm and then leave... that is WAY more expensive for the park to absorb than a guest that may come from 10am-9pm along with the regular masses. The latter is also more likely to spend in the park, while the former is just gonna do a few highlights and go.

    If each admission were actually a cost in some way... people wouldn't treat it like a throwaway and would likely consolidate their visits more. And in doing so, they stay longer, which increases the chance of spending, and go through things like parking more like tourist guests, etc.

    All of the above is how 'free on demand' 'all you can eat' admission impacts the park on a weekly basis in a negative way. The whole hordes descending on the park for a high profile date are another beast. But the premise is the same... 'bodies in the gate' are not equal. How they get there, when they get there, how long they stay, and their spending motivations all make a 'body' cost different and represent different revenue opportunities.

    Thinking 'Disney should not turn away a guest' is an oversimplified view that doesn't take into account the cost vs revenue opportunity of each guest and optimizing your attendance to be the ones who will actually give you the most money per head.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    The budget for operations was already planned. Disney had a "horde" of casual part timers that need hours. Why not spend the money? Disney can't be the business that turns away business. It is absolutely ridiculous that we are debating whether Disney is incapable of serving large crowds.
    Why not just make the park free then? If 'the budget is already planned', and they need the hours, and Disney can afford it... It's not about what Disney can afford.. it's about costs vs revenues like the rest of the business. The visiting patterns of a casual AP local are more costly to the park vs a visiting pattern of a tourist.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    Every single day, Disney is signing up new APs. You seen the lines for AP processing. This is new revenue that you say Disney should refuse. It is the $300-$600 that should be refused on a daily basis since, of course, Disney is "losing" money on the APs. It should be noted that on a daily basis, many APs are expired as well and need to be renewed. Income from APs are revenue on a daily basis.
    That thinking is so b0rked I'm not even going to bother.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  2. #167

    • Pilot EdForceOne
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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    You do realize that a multiple park model means multi-day park passes. This is how Disney can afford to maintain 2 parks or more. WDW's 4 parks means they are selling quite a lot of 4 day or longer passes. Currently, I am sure Disneyland has topped out at 2 or 3 day passes.
    The money isn't in the extra days on the passes (Disney is only charging 10-20 bucks for that) - it's in keeping the guest 'in the bubble' longer... more hotel... more food... ensuring the guest's available spend is going to you.

    DLR doesn't have the same revenue streams WDW has - it operates differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    You might ask how does Disney monetize a multi-park structure with APs. How can they generate more money from 3 parks or more. Why not look at WDW with their AP system? Aren't they at least $100 more than Disneyland's APs? No, they are $300 more than Disneyland's cheapest AP!!!
    Apples and oranges. The AP base is different, the visiting patterns are different, the revenue streams are different, the ratio of AP vs non-AP are different, the types of APs are different.. and it goes on.

    Simply raising AP pass prices when you add a park is not the brightest move for DLR. In doing so they would price out many of their customer base and would end up turning people away... vs retaining them as a customer by offering a product that fits their needs/abilities.

    The DLR premium pass was way too cheap for a long long time... they've slowly been fixing that.. but they would be better off switch the model away from an unlimited pass all together and instead move to a discounted pay per use model that encourages repeat visits, but in a way that makes DLR a destination, not just a redbox rental.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  3. #168

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    instead monetize actual usage.
    Disney is monetizing potential usage. That's free money. An interest free loan. If the guest doesn't cash out, Disney wins. If the guest does cash out, Disney wins (its the movie theater model), and the actual monetary cost of that visit is extremely low and it is discounted since the ticket was bought months ago (yesterday's money is more valuable than today's money based on inflation). How soon is the theoretical break even period? 6 months, 8 months, 10 months? By 6 months, Disney gained interest on that income if Disney was smart to put that money to work.

    You should be aware, but you couldn't handle the fact that APs are procesed every single day. Revenue is earned on a daily basis that would not have been earned if the customer kept that money in his/her pocket.

  4. #169

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    idk i like the fact of paying 65-80$ for park hoppers back in 2010. Now, you just have to get lucky for that but the odds are not That bad to do so, it's just a matter of Where to look. You're better off going to dca instead whereas disney is just eye candy. I'm still curious why club 33 seems to offer more opportunities to the gay community as well as single woman as that's all I essentially viewed during my time there (happy people, drunk woman) interesting to say the least.

  5. #170

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    The money isn't in the extra days on the passes (Disney is only charging 10-20 bucks for that) - it's in keeping the guest 'in the bubble' longer... more hotel... more food... ensuring the guest's available spend is going to you.

    DLR doesn't have the same revenue streams WDW has - it operates differently.
    You seem to think the bubble is better for the tourist than the local with an AP. Why is that?

    Of course they are operating different, but they also have some common traits. The principle is the same. Only the details are different and tailored to the location.

    Apples and oranges. The AP base is different, the visiting patterns are different, the revenue streams are different, the ratio of AP vs non-AP are different, the types of APs are different.. and it goes on.

    Simply raising AP pass prices when you add a park is not the brightest move for DLR. In doing so they would price out many of their customer base and would end up turning people away... vs retaining them as a customer by offering a product that fits their needs/abilities.

    The DLR premium pass was way too cheap for a long long time... they've slowly been fixing that.. but they would be better off switch the model away from an unlimited pass all together and instead move to a discounted pay per use model that encourages repeat visits, but in a way that makes DLR a destination, not just a redbox rental.
    They will raise the prices for the 3rd park. That's the way it works. You asked "How will they monetize" the parks. They will through price increases. Now you are saying... hold back, don't do it.


    So you agree the Premium Pass is too cheap and it is priced right now, but still, discontinue it and go back to "discounted pay per use model that encourages repeat visits"? The model fails because the incentive for repeat visits doesn't exist.

  6. #171

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    You're switching constraints... The parties are relevant to this discussion because 'everyone pays to get in' - no 'freebies' like they have every day with APs. Disney can monetize all the extra effort.

    You keep suggesting I'm telling Disney to turn away business. No, I'm telling Disney to monetize their admissions vs taking the sweetheart deal up front because the deal breaks down. Stop promising 'all you can eat' and instead monetize actual usage.

    These problems go much deeper than 'not daily events'. The visiting patterns this 'free on demand' type of access propagates all throughout the park operations. From how many parking spots the property needs, to staffing parking/trams, to turnstyles, crowd control, and more. And higher attendance doesn't mean 'more revenue' when those people don't pay to get in, don't eat in the park, nor buy stuff that visit. They are drains on the infrastructure of the park.

    When someone can casually come in and just hang out from 5-9pm and then leave... that is WAY more expensive for the park to absorb than a guest that may come from 10am-9pm along with the regular masses. The latter is also more likely to spend in the park, while the former is just gonna do a few highlights and go.

    If each admission were actually a cost in some way... people wouldn't treat it like a throwaway and would likely consolidate their visits more. And in doing so, they stay longer, which increases the chance of spending, and go through things like parking more like tourist guests, etc.

    All of the above is how 'free on demand' 'all you can eat' admission impacts the park on a weekly basis in a negative way. The whole hordes descending on the park for a high profile date are another beast. But the premise is the same... 'bodies in the gate' are not equal. How they get there, when they get there, how long they stay, and their spending motivations all make a 'body' cost different and represent different revenue opportunities.

    Thinking 'Disney should not turn away a guest' is an oversimplified view that doesn't take into account the cost vs revenue opportunity of each guest and optimizing your attendance to be the ones who will actually give you the most money per head.

    Why not just make the park free then? If 'the budget is already planned', and they need the hours, and Disney can afford it... It's not about what Disney can afford.. it's about costs vs revenues like the rest of the business. The visiting patterns of a casual AP local are more costly to the park vs a visiting pattern of a tourist.

    That thinking is so b0rked I'm not even going to bother.
    There is so much wrong here.

    You're not going turn a local into a tourist. While I think staycation is fine and all, you're not going to convince locals to do a multi-day vacation to Disneyland.

    To refuse to sell an AP to a local is leaving money on the table. There is no incentive for repeat visits. None.

    The actual usage that you keep referring to is the old model of once a year visits.

    Disneyland is better off adapting to guest preferences than expect guests to adapt to Disneyland's or your preferences. Actually, I think guests have adapted to Disney's own restrictions with the passes with all those blockout dates and such. Disneyland's passes are extremely expensive and have many restrictions unlike other theme parks in the area.

    I think you see Disney's success and believe it can translate to a different and less crowded model and Disney will earn just as much money and maybe more. Perhaps, but it is a radical approach and I doubt it will succeed.

    "Why not just make the park free then?" Goodness. You're already saying the AP holders are getting in for practically free and Disney can't afford the cost. Again, it is disturbing that you want to line Disney's pockets for improvements that may not actually show up in the parks.

  7. #172

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    And a lot of people have been priced out of going to Disneyland, because of the current entrance package options.
    Which is what we were discussing at one point.

    There are 20 million people in a 100-mile radius. I'd say that 15 million of them don't go to Disneyland even once yearly.
    The issue is that getting those people to go to Disneyland annually would require something new and different and better than the prior visit. It is simply easier for management to take a lot of money from 900,000 people and let them visit the same old park over and over and over than to create an annually improved experience.
    The problems that arise from having an Annual Passport Program affect the guests, not Management's jobs. If anything, having these problems to solve is job security for some.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  8. #173

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by sediment View Post
    And a lot of people have been priced out of going to Disneyland, because of the current entrance package options.
    Which is what we were discussing at one point.

    There are 20 million people in a 100-mile radius. I'd say that 15 million of them don't go to Disneyland even once yearly.
    The issue is that getting those people to go to Disneyland annually would require something new and different and better than the prior visit. It is simply easier for management to take a lot of money from 900,000 people and let them visit the same old park over and over and over than to create an annually improved experience.
    The problems that arise from having an Annual Passport Program affect the guests, not Management's jobs. If anything, having these problems to solve is job security for some.
    The issue is not about price. If this is true, the other theme parks would be happily accepting business like Six Flags, Knott's, Universal Studios, SeaWorld, and Legoland. The admission prices of Six Flags and Knott's gotten lower. They haven't kept up. Universal, SeaWorld, and Legoland have maintained their high prices.

    Not everyone is a theme park fan. It is a mistake to assume lower Disneyland prices will lift up the tourist market. The tourist market is actually less price sensitive. Lower prices will entice the locals to attend for day trips, but if they are offering the higher priced APs, why would Disney turn its back on the cash?

    Disneyland should be proud that it has such a loyal customer base. It has reached saturation since Disneyland maximized its capacity. There is still room for growth in Disneyland and especially in California Adventure. The third park is still 10 years away.

    What can or should happen is they should use Tokyo Disneyland as the model. A new spectacular park, DisneySeas is enough enticement to lower attendance at the primary park. With the success of Carsland, Disneyland's attendance did not increase although it somewhat recovered recently.

    This mix of data should be considered in the debate.
    Last edited by StevenW; 10-25-2013 at 10:22 AM.

  9. #174

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Flynnibus I think your entire premise is flawed. The idea that anybody is getting anything for free is ludicrous. Paying hundreds of dollars for an AP is the antithesis of getting things for free.

  10. #175

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    Disney is monetizing potential usage. That's free money. An interest free loan. If the guest doesn't cash out, Disney wins(1). If the guest does cash out, Disney wins (2)(its the movie theater model), and the actual monetary cost of that visit is extremely low(3) and it is discounted since the ticket was bought months ago (yesterday's money is more valuable than today's money based on inflation)(4). How soon is the theoretical break even period? 6 months, 8 months, 10 months? By 6 months, Disney gained interest on that income(5) if Disney was smart to put that money to work.
    1 - Yes, that's the ideal case and why most businesses will offer discounts for upfront purchases. But how many people do you know that bought an AP and never hit their break-even vs 1-2 day tickets?
    2 - If the guest were spending.. but when APs skip buying all the cheap merch, eat off site, don't stay long enough for fixed meals, etc... Disney is behind
    3 - The cost of the visit is NOT low when those guests in aggregate alter the visiting pattern of the park. This is the core issue. Needing more parking spots, needing more staff at different hours, needing more staff at peak hours vs longer windows, etc.. these all make these guests more cost impact than a tourist guest.
    4 - Inflation isn't a factor in such short periods
    5 - Interest gain on $500-$600 over a 12m period? That's comical. Yes, Disney is so far ahead with that 2 cents it's earned.. *rolleyes*

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    You should be aware, but you couldn't handle the fact that APs are procesed every single day. Revenue is earned on a daily basis that would not have been earned if the customer kept that money in his/her pocket.
    Oh I can handle it.. I'm just smart enough to know it's doesn't freaking matter.
    If I give you $10... and then take $15 from over the next 3 months. People doing the same every day doesn't less the impact of me taking $15 from you. It's the same cycle being repeated and you lose in the long run.. even if at certain days you think you are ahead because at a single slice in time you may be cash positive.

    You keep going back to 'revenue that would not be earned' on the pretense if I didn't collect it up front.. I never would get it. That's the point you can't comprehend. No one is saying 'never collect that money' - people are advocating a pricing model that collects that same money or more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
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  11. #176

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    Flynnibus I think your entire premise is flawed. The idea that anybody is getting anything for free is ludicrous. Paying hundreds of dollars for an AP is the antithesis of getting things for free.
    Answer this... how many AP holders do you know that paid Disney several hundred dollars... that didn't go beyond the break-even value of their AP?

    You are fixated on handing over money - and missing the aggregate value and lost revenue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  12. #177

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    There is so much wrong here.

    You're not going turn a local into a tourist. While I think staycation is fine and all, you're not going to convince locals to do a multi-day vacation to Disneyland.

    To refuse to sell an AP to a local is leaving money on the table. There is no incentive for repeat visits. None.
    Am I talking over your head? Because I never said turn them into a tourist, and I gave several options as ways of incentives for repeat visits. You either aren't comprehending, not reading, or so fixated you can't see outside the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    The actual usage that you keep referring to is the old model of once a year visits.
    No, it's not. It's more akin to what you see from FL resident usage, or what you see from DLR APs who live more than a half day drive away. They don't show up after work.. they don't pop in for a few hours and leave... they don't use DLR as a meeting point for their friends.. they don't show up at 2pm and whine about FP return times... they don't show up 10+ times a month.. etc. They consolidate their 'disney time+energy' into less trips where they stay longer.


    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    I think you see Disney's success and believe it can translate to a different and less crowded model and Disney will earn just as much money and maybe more. Perhaps, but it is a radical approach and I doubt it will succeed.
    No, I see it as a situation where fans are so rabid, Disney is leaving money on the table and hurting themselves operationally (and in capital expense as well) because of the AP program. They are trading predictable guaranteed quarter to quarter revenue in exchange for having to spend more, scramble more, and a reduced guest experience. But if you are measured more on revenue and less on margin... or you can prop margin up by just cutting labor or raising prices.. the guaranteed money is the easy path. And when your boss is only on 3 year rotations... why rock the boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    "Why not just make the park free then?" Goodness. You're already saying the AP holders are getting in for practically free and Disney can't afford the cost. Again, it is disturbing that you want to line Disney's pockets for improvements that may not actually show up in the parks.
    The reference was to show the fallacy of your claim the costs are pre-determined anyway.. so why not let them in. If you believe that.. why not go all the way to 'let anyone in'... I wasn't actually suggesting that it was viable, but in fact the complete opposite. I'm starting to remember why I skipped these posts before... its not worth the energy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  13. #178

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    Flynnibus I think your entire premise is flawed. The idea that anybody is getting anything for free is ludicrous. Paying hundreds of dollars for an AP is the antithesis of getting things for free.
    Its comparitive with the amount of time versus how much it costs to get in one time without the pass.

    If you get the cheapest pass and go once a month on a payment plan, you're technically getting in for 16 bucks a trip.

    Compared to the normal ticket price for one trip.

    And most AP holders go at least the bare minimum to make up for the price of their AP in comparative ticket value
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  14. #179

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Answer this... how many AP holders do you know that paid Disney several hundred dollars... that didn't go beyond the break-even value of their AP?

    You are fixated on handing over money - and missing the aggregate value and lost revenue.
    *raises hand*

    Part of why I dropped my AP - I'd gone from visiting multiple times monthly to maybe 2-3 times a year. Now that I've dropped it, I don't go at all and anything I would have spent at a theme park goes to the drastically less expensive park up the road.

    I know *many* APs that go maybe 4-5 times over the course of the year. They're brushing right underneath the break even point, but the convenience of the AP makes paying more per visit worthwhile. Same reason I have cousins who'll come out for two weeks, go once and buy an AP, then come back at the end of the year and go again - two visits, premium AP price paid, and they're not alone in doing so.
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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Yeah, when I had an AP I went just enough to break even. I lived about an hour away and would go ~4 times a year, enough to where my per-visit cost was just under the single day ticket price (this was a few years ago so the numbers are different now). The AP who shows up every weekend is certainly not the norm.

    Of course if you buy an AP for $500 and go 300 times then your per-visit cost will be much lower than if you paid full price for those 300 visits. That's forgetting, of course, that nobody would go 300 times if they had to pay full price. StevenW's point is good that you can't turn a local into a tourist, which I suspect is why Disney likes the AP program to the point that they expanded it with the monthly payments a few years ago. Also, breaking it down to per visit costs just by comparing the AP's cost and the number of visits completely forgets about merch and food and all the other ways you can give Disney money. I think for every AP who goes 300 times and spends $0 per visit in the park you can find a dozen APs who visit 5-10 times annually and spend a lot of cash per visit.

    And for the hundredth time, do you really think that Disney hasn't crunched the numbers here? I'm going to be honest, I think the idea that Disney is leaving money on the table is false on its face. Disney is extremely good at not leaving money on the table, if anything they're great at taking all the money from the table and then convincing people to put even more money on.

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