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  1. #211

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    I just really can't believe that a handful of posters on an internet forum are somehow more in tune with the intricacies of Disney's finances than Disney is, especially given that Disney has access to worlds of numbers and datasets that you'll never see.
    Right back at ya (think about it)
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  2. #212

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Yes, I get it, I don't know anything about Disney's finances either. But I suspect that they do. I admit that I don't know anything about Disney's internal numbers, but it's not unreasonable to defer to them (knowing that they have numbers and a vested interest in constantly making more money) than to the back-of-a-napkin musings of a few internet posters.

  3. #213

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    The visiting patterns this 'free on demand' type of access propagates all throughout the park operations. From how many parking spots the property needs, to staffing parking/trams, to turnstyles, crowd control, and more. And higher attendance doesn't mean 'more revenue' when those people don't pay to get in, don't eat in the park, nor buy stuff that visit. They are drains on the infrastructure of the park.

    When someone can casually come in and just hang out from 5-9pm and then leave... that is WAY more expensive for the park to absorb than a guest that may come from 10am-9pm along with the regular masses. The latter is also more likely to spend in the park, while the former is just gonna do a few highlights and go.

    If each admission were actually a cost in some way... people wouldn't treat it like a throwaway and would likely consolidate their visits more. And in doing so, they stay longer, which increases the chance of spending, and go through things like parking more like tourist guests, etc.

    All of the above is how 'free on demand' 'all you can eat' admission impacts the park on a weekly basis in a negative way. The whole hordes descending on the park for a high profile date are another beast. But the premise is the same... 'bodies in the gate' are not equal. How they get there, when they get there, how long they stay, and their spending motivations all make a 'body' cost different and represent different revenue opportunities.

    Thinking 'Disney should not turn away a guest' is an oversimplified view that doesn't take into account the cost vs revenue opportunity of each guest and optimizing your attendance to be the ones who will actually give you the most money per head.
    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Simply raising AP pass prices when you add a park is not the brightest move for DLR. In doing so they would price out many of their customer base and would end up turning people away... vs retaining them as a customer by offering a product that fits their needs/abilities.

    The DLR premium pass was way too cheap for a long long time... they've slowly been fixing that.. but they would be better off switch the model away from an unlimited pass all together and instead move to a discounted pay per use model that encourages repeat visits, but in a way that makes DLR a destination, not just a redbox rental.
    Nail on the head!
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  4. #214

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    Yes, I get it, I don't know anything about Disney's finances either. But I suspect that they do. I admit that I don't know anything about Disney's internal numbers, but it's not unreasonable to defer to them (knowing that they have numbers and a vested interest in constantly making more money) than to the back-of-a-napkin musings of a few internet posters.
    It is quite unreasonable actually.....to defer to something you admit you no nothing about
    Waiting for Godot Micechat.com

  5. #215

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    My mind still boggles at the idea that the words "free" and "giving it away" are anywhere near a discussion of a system that costs several hundred dollars per year per person.
    It's all in the timing, when someone has to decide to purchase entrance.

    Someone intending to buy/renew an AP is already planning to go so many days in the coming 365 days. So, for them, at that time, it is a choice, and it's going to cost them the AP Price times number of AP's bought.

    Once someone has committed the money, though, the choice whether to go to the park or not on any given day is not based on how much money will be spent, since no money will be spent. But, many will make the decision to go to the park based on the money that has already been spent. Maybe go more often than they had planned to back when they were making the decision. Certainly they are not planning to go to the park less frequently than they planned.
    And many of them will make the decision to eat somewhere else before entering.
    And many of them will look to buy something that they can't buy anywhere else or that is discounted heavily. No need to buy impulsively anything lest lose one's chance forever. There is always next week, or check the local WalMart or JC Penney to see how exclusive the item really is.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  6. #216

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Nail on the head!
    True, but I think there are still a whole lot of local people who don't go to Disneyland even once a year, and management has decided not to try so hard to entice them to show up even for a once-a-year experience, and instead has decided to concentrate their efforts on a select few who are not as concerned with quality as they are with quantity.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  7. #217

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Did the lack of an AP program dissuade locals from attending frequently before it was created?
    Exactly. That's another of the downsides with the AP ticketing scheme as it's currently administered: the entire system (the business and its customer base) becomes addicted to the easy up-front cash flow and easy accessibility, and convinces itself that the program is absolutely essential -- blinding itself to the longterm negatives that are the inevitable result of year after year of high entrance volume at a per-visit price of pennies on the dollar.

    The essence of Disneyland's AP program is an economic "Deal with the Devil" -- instead of competing for new customers by regularly building brilliant new rides, Disney agrees to let repeat customers visit the Park nearly as often as they want, for pennies on the dollar. In return, the customers agree to re-visit over and over and re-ride the same old rides... or simply use the Park as a hangout.


    Quote Originally Posted by sediment View Post
    True, but I think there are still a whole lot of local people who don't go to Disneyland even once a year, and management has decided not to try so hard to entice them to show up even for a once-a-year experience, and instead has decided to concentrate their efforts on a select few who are not as concerned with quality as they are with quantity.
    Bingo. It's much easier for management to let Tomorrowland collect dust, cut maintenance costs, slash their training program to the bone, pay their CMs fast food wages, and collect the easy money of AP payments.

    Easier for now, that is. What it does to Disneyland's longterm reputation as a desirable destination isn't the concern of Disney's short term revolving-door management. By the time the public perception of Disneyland's value has seriously eroded, those people will have long since collected their bonuses and moved on.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 10-25-2013 at 06:50 PM.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

    - Neil Gabler


  8. #218

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Easier for now, that is. What it does to Disneyland's longterm reputation as a desirable destination isn't the concern of Disney's short term revolving-door management. By the time the public perception of Disneyland's value has seriously eroded, those people will have long since collected their bonuses and moved on.
    But but but... they make billions a year! You should trust their current path is the best path.. because.. you know... they work at Disney!! And Disney makes billions a year! They can't be wrong! *facepalm*

    Maybe The International should do a little case study on companies like GM, Kodak, IBM, etc. Lots of companies make billions until the floor caves in because of short-sighted management.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
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  9. #219

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Not unlike the neighboorhood smack dealer.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  10. #220

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by sediment View Post
    It's all in the timing, when someone has to decide to purchase entrance.

    Someone intending to buy/renew an AP is already planning to go so many days in the coming 365 days. So, for them, at that time, it is a choice, and it's going to cost them the AP Price times number of AP's bought.

    Once someone has committed the money, though, the choice whether to go to the park or not on any given day is not based on how much money will be spent, since no money will be spent. But, many will make the decision to go to the park based on the money that has already been spent. Maybe go more often than they had planned to back when they were making the decision. Certainly they are not planning to go to the park less frequently than they planned.
    And many of them will make the decision to eat somewhere else before entering.
    And many of them will look to buy something that they can't buy anywhere else or that is discounted heavily. No need to buy impulsively anything lest lose one's chance forever. There is always next week, or check the local WalMart or JC Penney to see how exclusive the item really is.
    I'm not sure since I don't shop at Walmart or JC Penney, but I'm guessing they don't sell Disney Dooney and Burke purses, SHAG's wonderful Disney collectibles or the amazing World of Color leather glow jackets. Please let me know if they do...I could save a lot of money.

    I find it really insulting to be lumped in a group as a cheap, unsophisticated rube because I still enjoy the park and have been since my first visit back in the early 60s.

    Are there things I would like to change? Sure, just like I wish that Newport Beach wasn't double the population as when I was a kid, or the whole county in general for that matter. There are just too many people everywhere, not just Disneyland.

  11. #221

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    By the time the public perception of Disneyland's value has seriously eroded, those people will have long since collected their bonuses and moved on.
    Disneyland's public perception has been eroding since 1969. The AP program is just an extension of every other discount program the park has rolled out since the 1980s. The unlimited use passports, the resident salute passes, the annual passes, the twofers.... as Disneyland gets older, it will become harder and harder to convince folks to pay for the same thing year after year. You can only go on Pirates so many times before you tire of it.

    Unless they were willing to take on a serious investment in the park, and rip out most of the under performing Walt era rides like pirates and small world, you just have to accept that discounting will be the norm.

  12. #222

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Parking is just like gate admission... Disney sets a prepaid price of approx 3-4x the single rate and then you are free beyond that.
    Its all based on what they expect to get now. Disney capitalizes on impulse buying.


    But think about how your spending changes on how frequently you are there. You're not seeing the bigger picture.
    The bigger picture is either Disney gets my money as a local once or over time. The bigger picture you're not seeing is I'm not turning into a tourist.

    Wrong on both accounts. Disney's costs scale with the guest load. They are not fixed. Higher crowds means more cycles on equipment, hiring out offsite parking, shuttles, staff, etc. The costs are not directly linear to guest count because there are quantizer effects and minimums. The best way to think about it is in 'stepped' values.
    You're wrong in this case because you forget that there's a minimum overhead that never changes. Weekdays, weekend, holidays all have a minimum staffing level. This never changes in their planning.

    You're comparing an aggregate but ignoring what the aggregate on the other side of the comparison is. $3 million sounds like alot.. except when you are comparing it to numbers hundreds of times bigger (the additional cost incurred by those million people over a full year). Basic alegbra tells you that when you multiply both sides of an equation by the same thing.. your relation stays true.

    So looking at one customer or 1 million doesn't make a difference. Their gain from interest is dwarfed by their incremental cost. You said their additional costs are offset by the interest. If Disney has to staff up to cover 10k more guests on a day... those 10k guest's interest is only bringing the company 30k for the ENTIRE YEAR.. so more like $82 a day. $82 a day won't even pay one additional front-line CM for a single 8hr shift for that day. Where in reality a spike of 10k guests in the park brings far more additional cost to the bottom line of operations for the day.

    So again.. if I give you $3 million dollars.. but take away $10 million over the course of a year.. you still lose even tho you had 3 million for a period of time.

    nevermind the whole point that don't recognize or collect all the revenue from all 1 million APs at once.. so you're hanging your hat on a number you never would see anyways.
    The incremental cost is over and above what the AP spending already covers.

    First, the $3 million is added to the $300 million in admissions for a total of $303 million in revenue from the APs. That is a lot of money. Cost doesn't come into the equation yet. Plus, consider that the $3 million in interest is from the unrealized potential of the unclaimed AP admission. It is equivalent to 32,608 one day tickets that no one will actually use.

    Then you mention the 10K more guests that show up. Do you mean the locals who dare to use their AP ticket? That 10K is actually the breakeven equivalent of the 1 million AP holders. $300 AP ticket. Breakeven is $300 / $92 = 3.2 visits.
    1,000,000 AP holders times 4 visits per year divided by 365 days = 10,958 people per day.

    It is only significantly above 10K is when we have to consider the ramifications.

    What is your estimate of the day guest versus AP holder? 1 to 1 (50% to 50%), 2 to 1 (66% to 33%), 3 to 2 (60% to 40). In the worse case of 1:1, if the park has 50K visitor, 25K are APs, then we are only talking about a marginal cost difference of 30% (15K) that has to be supported. That 30% might seem a lot, but the manpower and resources already support 35K visitors for the full day, while the AP typically makes short trips so the impact is less severe. If 2:1, then the difference is 13% (6.5K).

    The attendance goes up and down throughout the week and months. It isn't that hard to figure out how the allocate resources and it isn't that bad.

    I do have a background in sales and pricing - and the prepaid is not the only viable model out there as proven by millions of examples that surround you every day.
    Consider that a theme park visit is a want, not a need. People don't need to go.
    Last edited by StevenW; 10-25-2013 at 07:31 PM.

  13. #223

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Disneyland's public perception has been eroding since 1969. The AP program is just an extension of every other discount program the park has rolled out since the 1980s. The unlimited use passports, the resident salute passes, the annual passes, the twofers.... as Disneyland gets older, it will become harder and harder to convince folks to pay for the same thing year after year. You can only go on Pirates so many times before you tire of it.

    Unless they were willing to take on a serious investment in the park, and rip out most of the under performing Walt era rides like pirates and small world, you just have to accept that discounting will be the norm.
    None of the ticket media is a discount. They aren't really discounts since you can't get the tickets for under $92. Do the resident salute and two fers still exist? I haven't seen the two fer for over a year. When did we ever get a resident salute? The only discount ticket I gotten was AAA discounted tickets, which means I get free parking.

    Public perception eroding since 1969? Wow. I was a toddler in 1969.

    You want serious investment like DCA and Carsland? Tell us more. I never thought a Disney fan would want Pirates and Small World to be ripped out, but there is always a first.

  14. #224

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    None of the ticket media is a discount. They aren't really discounts since you can't get the tickets for under $92. Do the resident salute and two fers still exist? I haven't seen the two fer for over a year. When did we ever get a resident salute? The only discount ticket I gotten was AAA discounted tickets, which means I get free parking.
    Of course they are a discount. If you are given the option of A for 92 dollars, or Ax3 for $225, with Ax3, you are getting a discount on the price of A alone.

    The Resident Salute was the discount program of the 80s/90s where they usually knock'ed 10 dollars off the cost of a one day ticket for Southern California residents.

    Public perception eroding since 1969? Wow. I was a toddler in 1969.

    You want serious investment like DCA and Carsland? Tell us more. I never thought a Disney fan would want Pirates and Small World to be ripped out, but there is always a first.
    I don't want them to rip out Pirates or Small World. But that's why I also understand that the discount programs will continue.

  15. #225

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    My free output has been exceeded. People can believe whatever they want. No skin off my back
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
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