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  1. #61

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    What's interesting is that some of the days when all passes are active are the days when the park is a ghost town and all the rides are walk ons.

    And conversely most of the passes are blocked out during peak seasons and Saturdays and those are unbearably crowded.
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  2. #62

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by DL714 View Post
    I doubt food prices subsidize low ticket prices, AP's, or anything else. Disney is not an airline in the 90's, the better analogy if it is a problem of charging one segment of your business more to make up for losses elsewhere.

    Disney is not carrying excess capacity anywhere (even at its hotels) that it must subsidize with higher prices anywhere else. As such, it is in the very envious position of pricing each segment of its business to make a profit.

    As for your imaginary Disney customer, how is it that he or she is a victim of discount admission prices? Because they have to pay high food and souvenir prices? Any customer who thinks like that knows exactly what kind of game they are playing. After all, aren't these the same people who buy Deluxe AP's and visit the resort 315 days a year? How could that customer be a victim?

    Of course, there is no such customer. And, even the ones that think they are gaming the system by going as many times as they need to make the price of an AP worthwhile aren't cheating Disney or anyone else? AP's are a market segment that exists because Disney wants on average to increase the ticket price it gets per person. As long as Disney gets that premium on average, there is no game being played (at least by the so-called beancounters).
    Yup. And as high as Disney's food and drink prices may be, they're really a lot lower than other venues. Drinks, snacks and meals cost way more at LA area sports stadiums and concert venues than they do at Disneyland. That's another bit of evidence that there's no subsidizing going on.
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  3. #63

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    [QUOTE=Mr Wiggins;1057039251]Yep. The higher the AP price, the more that the remaining APers will visit to get their money's worth... and the less they'll tend to spend on food and merch (the prices of which Disney must increase, like those of the day tickets, to subsidize the discounted AP per-day prices).

    QUOTE]

    Long-time lurker here, but not many posts. I've read these kinds of threads numerous times in the past with just about every scenario possible, so I'm sure someone has already said something along these lines.

    My first pass last year was a BD gift from my best friend, since it turned out that 3 days in the park with an extra $20 or so was the same amount as the cheapest SoCal pass. Plus, we got a discount off our rooms at the Disneyland Hotel. We went every couple of months- to see Halloween, Christmas and twice in the Spring before we were blocked out.

    We both enjoyed ourselves so much that when our passes expired at the end of August, we renewed for the Deluxe. Neither of us feel the need to "get our money's worth". I look at it like a club membership for only $40 a month-just like the Y or the Bay Club in Newport- I want the option of going, but don't feel like I have to go.

    As for the AP'ers not spending money, we aren't completely atypical because I do talk with others in line for rides and at various restaurants. Last month, someone was kind enough to get us into Club 33. We checked into the Disneyland Hotel to get spruced up, went for dinner ($100 in merch each) and finished off the evening at Trader Sam's. Only walked through the park to get to dinner.

    The next morning was early entry at DCA, but we weren't even in line for the rope drop. We basically walked on to RSS, and then went over to the park and we were the only 2 in the elevator for HM (which was really cool), did a few more rides and then went for a late breakfast at Storyteller's. It didn't even get crowded until maybe 1 or so, and even then it wasn't bad at all.

    On that visit, my friend got a Dooney and Burke purse and I bought some pins (besides the Club 33 stuff) .

    A couple of Sundays ago, we decided to go for dinner. We got to Downtown Disney around 5, had drinks at Trader Sam's, dinner at Uva Bar and then went into the park. The longest lines of the rides we were interested in were Peter Pan and Raiders, maybe 20 minutes. We happened to be on the Storybook while the fireworks were going off and had a killer view, including the best I've ever seen of Tink. On our way out of the park, we each got caramel apples- but yes, we didn't buy ANY merchandise. Only $150 on drinks and dinner.

    So, AP renewed since 8/26 and 2 visits so far. Once for Christmas at some point and then that is probably it for the year, unless we do a dinner again.

    I'm completely lost as to why the same people continually post how bad the park is. If I am not happy with a product or service, I contact the company. If the situation isn't resolved to my satisfaction, I move on. I certainly wouldn't be posting week after week on their FB page or other forums. I find these threads depressing- which is why I normally avoid.

    My little brother was sick and has since passed away, which is why last year’s BD had to be close to home. In any case, I always feel like a 5 year old boy when I visit Disneyland and I hope that never changes, or that I've been on a ride so many times that I notice if a pirate is missing a scarf or the color of a vest is different.


    Sorry for the long post, but you won’t be seeing some variation every time this type of thread pops up. I promise.

    Can't figure out the quotes thing, but need to be off to work.

    Last edited by FlubberZorro; 10-23-2013 at 07:31 AM.

  4. #64

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Yep. The higher the AP price, the more that the remaining APers will visit to get their money's worth... and the less they'll tend to spend on food and merch (the prices of which Disney must increase, like those of the day tickets, to subsidize the discounted AP per-day prices).
    This analysis might sound logical in theory, but it isn't the way it works in reality. Disney gets its money upfront via AP admission. That $300 to $600 is money free and clear. Any additional money they spend in the park will never be this cheap. Disney earns revenue from food, but profits from the margins. The park admissions are 100% margin if you ignore the overhead costs of running the park. The restaurants and stores have the same park overhead with the restaurant and store overhead to deal with.

    As any owner of a once-premiere-but-now-declining neighborhood movie theater will tell you, "papering the house" with discount tickets to jack up the bottom line gets more butts in the seats, but also a drop in concessions sales as more people smuggle in their own snacks and drinks, and more wear-and-tear on the house (the cheaper the per-visit admission price, the greater the tendency for customers to treat the place as cheap). Pretty soon you start looking for ways to cut costs, like reducing maintenance, paying your staff less, and not booking as many first-run shows. In the end it's a vicious cycle where the house loses in more ways than one: a direct hit to your bottom line, a gradual erosion of loyal customers over the long haul as the word gets around that you're a "discount house," and an increase in the customer churn rate as an ever-increasing percent of your patrons are attracted to you because your per-visit price is cheap.
    Movie theaters can not be compared with Disney theme parks. There are too many variables. I will say that discount movie ticket sales is the least of a concern to movie theaters. No move theater makes money from tickets since they must share their revenue with the movie studios. Movie theaters make money from concessions and advertisements (previews).

    Good luck with cutting costs. That's one way of losing customers. Besides, the movie studios are making it harder to cut costs with digital and 3D as basic requirements. Movie theaters are trying harder to win customers regardless of higher ticket prices especially with pricey 3D movies ($12). Come to think of it, the competition is actually the $1.30 movie rentals from Redbox that I can comfortably watch at home on my 50 inch LCD flat panel television.

    Disney Parks' beancounter-led management thinks they can have it both ways -- the mega-bodies of a locals discount house and the high prices of a premiere tourist resort. It's only a matter of time before both classes of customers get wise to the game.

    Memo to Disney: listen to the canaries in the mine.
    They are having both ways and extracting more money from customers and customers are still coming back. The parks are not getting less busy. Hey, another "no one is coming to Disneyland because it is too crowded or too expensive" argument.

  5. #65

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    For us, it wasn't whether we could afford it. It was about other things in life taking up more of our time and a combination of increased prices and less likely visits reducing the overall value. The increased crowds helped make the decision easier as well as even when we were there, it was a bit more challenging to do the things we were used to doing. We decided to get Knott's passes (which we likely won't do again) and just saved the cash we would have spent on Disney. That being said, it's been over a year since our last visit and we do miss the place. We'll likely go sooner than later but will have a CM friend sign us in.

  6. #66

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Not priced out yet. Probably have a couple of years left for Disneyland in our budget. Certainly don't feel welcomed as much as before. The execs are certainly making every effort to lessen the "guest" experiences.

  7. #67

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    There's nothing wrong with seeking alternative entertainment. I bought a Legoland annual pass. Pretty good park. It is worth it if you have young kids and I do.

    I might return to Disneyland when my kids is at least 8 years old. Then I will buy the cheaper annual pass and go at least once a month. I will certainly take advantage of the monthly pass, which I think is a wonderful plan.

  8. #68

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Yup. And as high as Disney's food and drink prices may be, they're really a lot lower than other venues. Drinks, snacks and meals cost way more at LA area sports stadiums and concert venues than they do at Disneyland. That's another bit of evidence that there's no subsidizing going on.
    The revenue opportunities, and hence models and pricing are entirely different between something like a sports team and Disney. It's apples and oranges when talking about business models. The only commonality is they both must sell at prices the customer will ultimately tolerate.

    A simple example.. a football team only has 8 home games. They can only sell food 8 days a year. A baseball team has 80+ games a year to sell food.. but has roughly 1/3 the crowd capacity. So why is it a beer costs the same at a baseball game as a football game? Disney has nearly the same capacity as a football game, but operates 365 days a year, and will collect 2-3 meals a visit vs the 1-2 meals the football venue may collect from a customer.

    The revenue models are far more complex than simply comparing end-user price and assuming the revenue strategies are the same.
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  9. #69

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    I think our family is driven away by the prices being too low, not too high.

    If the park doubled the prices I think we would be more likely to go back again. After our last trip this past weekend, we decided to start going back to WDW until something changes at DL.

    When DL started taping and roping off so many different parts of the park for parades and fireworks and fantasmic they seem to have failed to lower the number of people they let into the park. The result has become a much too crowded park. We liked having a smaller park to navigate compared to WDW... but the crowds have become insane.

    I want them to either lower the number of people they let in, eliminating all the roped off areas or raising the prices by about 100% so fewer people go.

  10. #70

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?


    My little brother was sick and has since passed away, which is why last year’s BD had to be close to home. In any case, I always feel like a 5 year old boy when I visit Disneyland and I hope that never changes




    [/QUOTE]

    FlubberZorro, I can't figure out the quotes thing either, so I hope I didn't goof up too badly here. Just wanted you to know: I enjoyed what you had to say and I am terribly sorry for the loss of your brother.

  11. #71

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Well, I can only tell you what things are like at a park level, but the various departments at Disneyland are so seperate and absolutely NEVER interact with one another that they might as well be different companies. I can tell you that we have different pay scales, different unions, different perks. For example, ODV was technically under the restaurant division, so we got free unlimited drinks throughout the park. I used to go backstage and walk through into restaurants like the Bengal BBQ, grab a cup, fix myself a coke, and then leave, and no other departments were allowed to do that.

    So based on that experience, I'm going to guess that the way that they handle profits are probably different as well. For example, attractions is counted by turnstyle clicks, and they get credit for so many turnstyle clicks per day. The managers of those attractions presumably get bonuses based on turnstyle clicks. Now how do you compare that to something that actually makes money in of itself like ODV? ODV makes a huge percentage of profits, probably more than anything else, but the dollar amounts themselves aren't that big. So ODV may make 500% profit, but that 500% in real money probably translates to maybe $100K per day at best. Almost none of that money is reinvested in ODV specifically, so it can be counted as all profit, but it's barely a drop in the bucket compared to how much a hotel makes or how much the World of Disney store makes.

    So the bottom line is that if that the revenue model is probably per divsion, not per park. Some departments (like a hotel) have tremendous costs, so their profit margin is low, but in actual dollers, they still make a lot of money. Other departments have minimal costs and ridicously high profit margins but don't actually make that much in actual dollars. Attractions makes no money in of itself, so where does the money come from to maintain them, pay the CM's salaries, build new ones, etc. Does it come strictly from ticket sales? Or does all the revenue from the park contribute? Or does it even come from profits made outside of the park? For example, the Avengers movie made a ton of money. Let's say Disney does decide to build an Avengers ride or show somewhere. Does the money to initially design the ride come from the movie? Or does it come from the assumed future park ticket sales?

    With a company like Disney that has such a diverse amount of products they sell, they probably have an equally diverse amount of business models, so I doubt that it's something that consumers would ever be able to figure out.
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  12. #72

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    They are having both ways and extracting more money from customers and customers are still coming back. The parks are not getting less busy.
    Correct, the parks are continuing to get busier and busier, and more and more expensive -- for many, uncomfortably so. Disney is indeed having its cake and eating it too.

    For now.


    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    Hey, another "no one is coming to Disneyland because it is too crowded or too expensive" argument.
    That wasn't at all the point of my post. The point was and is that even though Disney and many of its customers are adamant that the AP program as it is currently administered is a win-win that works to the benefit of both the company and its customers, it is in fact a lose-lose that in the long term works for the benefit of neither.

    The evidence is present now.
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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Correct, the parks are continuing to get busier and busier, and more and more expensive -- for many, uncomfortably so. Disney is indeed having its cake and eating it too.

    For now.




    That wasn't at all the point of my post. The point was and is that even though Disney and many of its customers are adamant that the AP program as it is currently administered is a win-win that works to the benefit of both the company and its customers, it is in fact a lose-lose that in the long term works for the benefit of neither.

    The evidence is present now.
    I would agree that the AP system a bad deal. I noticed on the weekdays that we were there that the park got significantly busier about the time schools and business would have allowed locals to go to the park. So much so that we decided that in the afternoon it was a good time to leave the park, get something to eat somewhere else and then maybe go back to DL, but to avoid CA at all cost because of the apparent local inflow to see WoC...

    Disney in all their wisdom chased off a family that would have paid for their over priced food and drink, in exchange they got some locals that were more likely to have either already eaten or brought something of their own with them.... Who would they have made more profit off of? Because in the end that is what matters.

  14. #74

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackster View Post
    ...Disney in all their wisdom chased off a family that would have paid for their over priced food and drink, in exchange they got some locals that were more likely to have either already eaten or brought something of their own with them.... Who would they have made more profit off of? Because in the end that is what matters.
    Precisely. And there lies the problem. Disney's top-heavy management hierarchy is further weighed down by a corporate structure of competing departments -- so many, and so competitive, that seeing the longterm forest for the short-term trees is difficult. Their marketing and pricing strategies for the DLR are excellent at exploiting the easy pickin's of the locals market to make current quarters and Fiscal Years look great. But the combination of their culture of revolving-door management, remoteness from their own product, combative departments that insist on All Profits All the Time, and their chronic inability (some would say arrogant refusal) to hear the proverbial canaries in the mine over the noise of their own groupthink -- plus the fact that many of their best and brightest are working for their competition up the street -- suggest the status quo is not the snug perfection that Disney smugly believes it to be.
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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackster View Post
    I would agree that the AP system a bad deal. I noticed on the weekdays that we were there that the park got significantly busier about the time schools and business would have allowed locals to go to the park. So much so that we decided that in the afternoon it was a good time to leave the park, get something to eat somewhere else and then maybe go back to DL, but to avoid CA at all cost because of the apparent local inflow to see WoC...
    Wait, you just described what you'll do as a local. A local will leave early or maybe just come to the parks in the evening. If you wanted to be a tourist, shouldn't you stay in the park as much as possible from morning to night?

    A local who has an AP can come to the park whenever he pleases due to the usage of the pass; however, it isn't always so easy to come and go to the park on the same day due to the commute. Traffic is one thing a local tries to avoid. Thus, a local is likely to come to the park in short spurts. 3 to 5 hours in the morning or afternoon; or the evenings usually after work. Then go home. They also visit the park once a month.

    As for WoC, I heard there is no more waiting for this attraction. This attraction is not as popular as it once was. You don't have to worry about getting a fastpass.

    Disney in all their wisdom chased off a family that would have paid for their over priced food and drink, in exchange they got some locals that were more likely to have either already eaten or brought something of their own with them.... Who would they have made more profit off of? Because in the end that is what matters.
    Have you visited the restaurants to see the impact of less food being consumed? This argument flies in the face of reality. There is no less consumption of food in the park. If you read the annual reports, there is more per person spending in the parks. It can be argued the higher revenue was caused by higher prices, but it seems like the increased revenue is at least 1 or 2 percent higher than price increases.

    Another point is more attendance, including that of APs, has helped to keep constant in-park spending. Otherwise, you're dealing with lower attendance with a lower level of spending. Higher spending comes from more crowds. That's just the way it works. Also, the APs are a special bunch that consumes such Disney products. You make it seem like "it is just cheap locals". Nope. It is the willing locals.

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