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  1. #121

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by The International View Post
    The difference is that people are actually, in reality, flocking to the park in greater numbers, whereas the idea that at some nebulous point in the future they will stop doing so is just an opinion. It's fine to have opinions on this but yours seems to be contrary to the reality of what's actually happening.
    See Yogi Berra's comments regarding Ruggeri's on the Hill.
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  2. #122

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    True, but I'm not sure what the pricing in the mid 50s has to do with today's pricing. Disney has a bit more experience with pricing theme park admission now than they did back then.

  3. #123

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Obviously..........now read the story of the Once-ler for a clearer understanding of where I am coming from
    Loved your quote. Really, you couldn't have made your idea clearer than that!

  4. #124

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    I will admit that I am baffled by the "they can't do renovations because of the crowds" comments. In the past three years, Splash, Pirates, Matterhorn and BTMRR have all gone down for extended rehabs. Our attractions get more time in refurb than WDW by a longshot. And the APs make that easier. Disney knows there is a large group that can come back later if an attraction is offline, even for months at a time.

    I also don't see how Disney would be able to recover the guaranteed $350000000 that APs bring in every year. Without APs most locals will go from giving Disney $300 - $600 a year to maybe $100...if they come at all.

  5. #125

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Since I invest in stocks, there are two ways to plan for the market. Either you make a prediction and invest/divest accordingly, or you ride the wave by following the trends. Now, what do you do if everyone is predicting a downturn, which is what usually happens when the market is doing so well. Do you divest now or wait? I tend to follow the trends until too late, then I lose my shirt on occasion.

    With Disneyland, it is hard to say when the park will hit a rough patch, but the variables that the detractors use does not support the argument. Arguing the crowds can't be sustained with high prices isn't logical when it appears the pricing is right. Arguing about upkeep is not irrelevant information. Upkeep is a lagging indicator.

    Calling for a cutback in APs is like putting out the surrender flag. Businesses prefer growth. Lack of growth means the park will start firing people. This is what you get with less business. You won't get your cherished maintenance. Who benefits from maintenance when the park is in decline? Who will be there to see it?

    Disneyland needs to adjust better to the new normal of higher attendance. The alternative is the past normal of lower attendance, which I'm sure we can go back 40 years to see how great it was.

  6. #126

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    No, I said what you did was what a local will do.

    I always thought Disneyland was better managed than WDW. Okay, if you say so.

    That Six Flags example doesn't apply. Disneyland Resort added Carsland!!! Disneyland hasn't discounted to get bodies. Upkeep is still doing fine.

    The issue is crowds. Do we want to increase prices astronomically to stop this insane crowding?

    I don't see Disney eliminating APs as a solution. It's removing another revenue stream to achieve less revenue while getting more individual spending. What executive will make that decision?

    I can imagine they are thinking of new admissions media. Another $200 for front of the line passes. I wonder if this is the premium you're willing to pay for.
    I would pay $200/day if they cut the crowds in half and not even care about being at the front of the line. I'm expecting that if they cut the crowds in half I would probably see a drop of about 50% of the line time on average and I could live with that... I get annoyed with the constant crowds outside the queues more than anything else. Simply trying to walk from one point to another is more stressful than grand central station at rush hour, at least in a subway station people are moving quickly... to often half the crowd at DL seems to be clueless about where they are going and just slowly meander about getting in the way.

  7. #127

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    And it is pretty funny to assume that Disney will lower tickets without APs. Disney's prices aren't that far off from Universal, Sea World, et al...they charge $92 because they can, and because it is in line with other theme parks.

  8. #128

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackster View Post
    to often half the crowd at DL seems to be clueless about where they are going and just slowly meander about getting in the way.
    I believe that's what is referred to as "tourist on vacation"
    Credibility is to be sought for. Credulity is not. Sadly the latter is our normal human state.

  9. #129

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by fjhuerta View Post
    What was the time when DL's maintenance was at its peak? I'd say it was during Matt Ouimett's time. And IIRC, prices were pretty fair back then.
    1979 - 1983 it was far better than even Ouimett's reign. I can't speak for pre-1979, but I would not be surprised if it was even better yet.

    That's not a knock on Matt though.....people back then were no where near the slobs we are now
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  10. #130

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
    Calling for a cutback in APs is like putting out the surrender flag. Businesses prefer growth. Lack of growth means the park will start firing people. This is what you get with less business. You won't get your cherished maintenance. Who benefits from maintenance when the park is in decline? Who will be there to see it?

    Disneyland needs to adjust better to the new normal of higher attendance. The alternative is the past normal of lower attendance, which I'm sure we can go back 40 years to see how great it was.
    You are assuming that they can adjust to a new normal of higher attendance... The reality is the park is limited in size. Unless they start building underground or above ground they cannot have higher attendance and provide the same personal space that they once had... It would be just as valid to ratchet up the prices double maybe even triple what they are now and limit the crowds.

    Doing so wouldn't necessarily reduce their earnings it might actually improve it. Fewer people means less maintenance costs... but if the ticket prices are high enough they could still maintain the same profit or even more profit.

    But Disney has pretty much given up on being premium. I think back to the 70's, you went into a shop in the park and they had really cool items for sale. Toys you wouldn't find anywhere else.... Then slowly that changed... The started selling the same junk you can get in a target or walmart only trying to charge 3 times the price... I can even recall about 10 years ago you could buy some really higher end costumes at the resorts or parks that you couldn't get anywhere else... Now those are gone and you get the same crap you would find in a target, but again at 3 times the price... Will some people continue to buy the overpriced junk? Yes, but eventually more and more will realize that they were fleeced when they see the same thing outside the park for 1/3 the price, those moments will tend to leave a bad taste in the consumers mouth and the next trip they take they will be a lot less likely to be suckered once again... Sure I'm betting Disney made some great income when they first started pushing schlock on people, but it will not continue forever, people aren't that stupid.

  11. #131

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    1979 - 1983 it was far better than even Ouimett's reign. I can't speak for pre-1979, but I would not be surprised if it was even better yet.

    That's not a knock on Matt though.....people back then were no where near the slobs we are now
    I thought about Ouimett because before that the park really looked bad. Very bad.

    As for the costs, the only solution I can see is three parks, Park Hoppers, same price. Everyone happy.

  12. #132

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    I'm pretty sure Disneyland has been selling overpriced merchandise since 1955. I highly doubt that 2013 will be the year when people suddenly get upset about it.

  13. #133

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by fjhuerta View Post
    What was the time when DL's maintenance was at its peak? I'd say it was during Matt Ouimett's time. And IIRC, prices were pretty fair back then.
    Disneyland's maintenance was at its peak pre-Eisner -- the same era when Disneyland's number of rides, restaurant selection, unique shopping, customer service standards, CM training, CM pay and CM longevity were at their peaks.

    All of those standards went seriously south during the profiteering of the Eisner and Iger eras, with an upswing during Matt's time.

    Of course, management dumped him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mackster View Post
    ... Sure I'm betting Disney made some great income when they first started pushing schlock on people, but it will not continue forever, people aren't that stupid.
    Exactly. Just give Disney -- and their competition -- some time.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
    Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
    imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

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  14. #134

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackster View Post
    You are assuming that they can adjust to a new normal of higher attendance... The reality is the park is limited in size. Unless they start building underground or above ground they cannot have higher attendance and provide the same personal space that they once had... It would be just as valid to ratchet up the prices double maybe even triple what they are now and limit the crowds.

    Doing so wouldn't necessarily reduce their earnings it might actually improve it. Fewer people means less maintenance costs... but if the ticket prices are high enough they could still maintain the same profit or even more profit.

    But Disney has pretty much given up on being premium. I think back to the 70's, you went into a shop in the park and they had really cool items for sale. Toys you wouldn't find anywhere else.... Then slowly that changed... The started selling the same junk you can get in a target or walmart only trying to charge 3 times the price... I can even recall about 10 years ago you could buy some really higher end costumes at the resorts or parks that you couldn't get anywhere else... Now those are gone and you get the same crap you would find in a target, but again at 3 times the price... Will some people continue to buy the overpriced junk? Yes, but eventually more and more will realize that they were fleeced when they see the same thing outside the park for 1/3 the price, those moments will tend to leave a bad taste in the consumers mouth and the next trip they take they will be a lot less likely to be suckered once again... Sure I'm betting Disney made some great income when they first started pushing schlock on people, but it will not continue forever, people aren't that stupid.
    There *IS* a certain amount Disney could do to address the increased attendance. A thread running through several of the MC updates deals with the reduction of rides-per-capita over the years as the decision of "Close two, Open one" played out.

    The attendance levels Disneyland sees now are not that far away from past attendance levels. The main difference is fewer rides and attractions to soak up the crowds overall, fewer rides per day for the average guest, and more people on the streets because it's the only place for them to be.

    There *will* be an eventual point where it becomes more of an issue. But simply bumping the parks back up to their previous ride level as far as daily capacity would solve much of it.
    Credibility is to be sought for. Credulity is not. Sadly the latter is our normal human state.

  15. #135

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    Re: Priced out of Disneyland? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackster View Post
    But Disney has pretty much given up on being premium. I think back to the 70's, you went into a shop in the park and they had really cool items for sale. Toys you wouldn't find anywhere else.... Then slowly that changed... The started selling the same junk you can get in a target or walmart only trying to charge 3 times the price... I can even recall about 10 years ago you could buy some really higher end costumes at the resorts or parks that you couldn't get anywhere else... Now those are gone and you get the same crap you would find in a target, but again at 3 times the price... Will some people continue to buy the overpriced junk? Yes, but eventually more and more will realize that they were fleeced when they see the same thing outside the park for 1/3 the price, those moments will tend to leave a bad taste in the consumers mouth and the next trip they take they will be a lot less likely to be suckered once again... Sure I'm betting Disney made some great income when they first started pushing schlock on people, but it will not continue forever, people aren't that stupid.

    THIS. 1,000X THIS. I've seen $75 sweatshirts that last one or two washing cycles and toys I can get anywhere else. When mom or grandma visited the park they bought back some really cool stuff (some of which I have). Nowadays, I could go to Wal-Mart and buy something better than anything else I can find at the park.

    Heck, my 50 Year anniversary leather jacket was bought on-line from the Dsney Store (I believe) because I could never find a good quality jacket at the park itself!

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