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  1. #61

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    DCA originally failed because it didn't have characters. Not a myth - just the simple truth.
    The simple truth is that DCA failed because it was was fugly and boring. The Company, of course, refused to believe it, preferring instead to blame it on terrorism fears, internet naysayers and El Nino; later they added the myth of "Wait... no Disney characters! Of course!" -- another of the sadly simplistic, self-serving mythologies they maintain to this day about DCA.
    "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
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  2. #62

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    The simple truth is that DCA failed because it was was fugly and boring. The Company, of course, refused to believe it, preferring instead to blame it on terrorism fears, internet naysayers and El Nino; later they added the myth of "Wait... no Disney characters! Of course!" -- another of the sadly simplistic, self-serving mythologies they maintain to this day about DCA.
    Do you think its a success now?

  3. #63

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Do you think its a success now?
    I think it has a ways to go. If only it could have things like: an updated original West Coast version of The Great Movie Ride; something elaborate like Mystic Manor set in a real San Francisco Square; something that gives a nod to the cowboy and Spanish settlers and that era; and if they want a movie tie in, release "Who Framed Roger Rabbit II" and remodel the fugly backside of Hollywood Land to something cool based on the 1940's film noiresque Hollywood presented in the Roger Rabbit movie(s).

    That would give the place more soul than Monstropolis or more characters handing out free baloons could ever do.

  4. #64

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    DCA originally failed because it didn't have characters. Not a myth - just the simple truth.

    The proof is in the change in attitude people have shown for the park despite it mostly being the same place as it opened. Paradise Pier is still there, Grizzly and Hollywood are all still there. But put Mickeys face on the ferris wheel and suddenly there's enough difference to refer to t as DCA 2.0.

    Think about the topic of the Little Mermaid ride. Despite the fact that most folks in this topic don't seem to Luke or understand the thing, it still gets 25,000 riders per day. How can that be considered anything but a success? Cars land has been such a huge success that Alaska Airlines used the characters for their Disneyland Adventure jet. Essentially equating the entire Disneyland experience into just the characters from Cars.

    Characters are King at Disneyland. Nothing prices that more than the hour long waits to see characters from a movie that hasn't even come out yet.
    Yes, it was the Mickey paint that saved DCA. That's why Bugs Land was the tipping point for DCA that immediatly reversed its fate... no wait I mean the electrical parade, that has characters and nostalgia!.... no it was Monsters Inc, that addition totally changed everyone's notions on the park...

    Maybe Toy Story Mania but even then not really. It got good lines but didn't really reverse the visitation for most of the park.

    Oh wait it was World of Color, a unique nightime entertainment offerign that had real quality to it. I mean you can argue that it was the characters or Mickey paint. But it seems like there was just an issue with the sum total of offerings and freshness to the parks. Once something "new" was introduced that had a unique must see quality to it the parks fate reversed.

    This again points towards quality being the king rather than characters themselves.
    "We all have sparks, imagination! it's how our minds... create creations!"

  5. #65

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jspider View Post
    Yes, it was the Mickey paint that saved DCA. That's why Bugs Land was the tipping point for DCA that immediatly reversed its fate... no wait I mean the electrical parade, that has characters and nostalgia!.... no it was Monsters Inc, that addition totally changed everyone's notions on the park...

    Maybe Toy Story Mania but even then not really. It got good lines but didn't really reverse the visitation for most of the park.

    Oh wait it was World of Color, a unique nightime entertainment offerign that had real quality to it. I mean you can argue that it was the characters or Mickey paint. But it seems like there was just an issue with the sum total of offerings and freshness to the parks. Once something "new" was introduced that had a unique must see quality to it the parks fate reversed.

    This again points towards quality being the king rather than characters themselves.
    And Buena Vista Street, what a mess, why did Disney think that would work with no characters?

  6. #66

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jspider View Post
    Yes, it was the Mickey paint that saved DCA. That's why Bugs Land was the tipping point for DCA that immediatly reversed its fate... no wait I mean the electrical parade, that has characters and nostalgia!.... no it was Monsters Inc, that addition totally changed everyone's notions on the park...

    Maybe Toy Story Mania but even then not really. It got good lines but didn't really reverse the visitation for most of the park.

    Oh wait it was World of Color, a unique nightime entertainment offerign that had real quality to it. I mean you can argue that it was the characters or Mickey paint. But it seems like there was just an issue with the sum total of offerings and freshness to the parks. Once something "new" was introduced that had a unique must see quality to it the parks fate reversed.

    This again points towards quality being the king rather than characters themselves.
    Hey, you forgot a major crowd draw: the Mickey face moved from the roller coaster to the Sun Wheel, but you no longer loop through Mickey's head. So that could cut both ways.

  7. #67

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jspider View Post
    Once something "new" was introduced that had a unique must see quality to it the parks fate reversed.
    Reversed how? What exactly reversed? Each addition you mentioned brought huge increases in attendance. Its not as if DCAs attendance remained flat from 2001-2012. Every character addition has brought more and more people in. Even world of Color saw a huge increase in attendance.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssaamm View Post
    And Buena Vista Street, what a mess, why did Disney think that would work with no characters?
    Judging from how quickly they have been stuffing character merch into the windows, I would guess that it didn't work out to well for them.

  8. #68

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    Sometimes it's a character thing, sometimes it isn't. Splash Mountain without characters would be a boring log flume ride. And Grizzly River Run, to me, is a generic rapids right without characters.

    I'm in the minority, however, because the line is always long during water ride season.

    I do think characters have something to do with it, but I believe that is included as part of "quality." Six Flags Magic Mountain has quality rollercoasters, and they would be popular with or without being named "Batman," but it wouldn't be the same as Disneyland Resort because people love the characters.

    It just takes common sense. You could build a Star Wars Speeder Bike ride but if you're just dodging trees and you don't see any characters on the ride, it wouldn't be as good of a ride. You could argue that Star Tours was successful without beloved characters in the film, but I would argue that if you just called it "Space Ride," and took out all Star Wars references, it probably would not have been as popular.

  9. #69

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    Six Flags Magic Mountain was a better park when it didn't even have Looney Tunes characters or DC Comics characters, and TROLLS roamed the park and you could ride a monorail or a railroad. When Samurai Summit and Ninja went in, I would say it was a really refreshing place.

  10. #70

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    "Quality will out." This was a favorite quote of Walt Disney's, and it means that you spend more money now and make something as good as it can be, and in the end you'll make more money then doing it cheaply for a quick buck. Here's the thing that I think even today Disney execs (and execs of most companies) just don't get: IT'S NOT A FORMULA!!! It's not ride + merch + restaurant + Disney characters = success. It's A Good Quality Ride = success, and Disney characters often times (but not always) make it even better. If you have A Good Quality Ride that guests love, they will demand merchandise and they will seek it out and even wait in line for hours for it. The only reason to force guests to exit through a merchandise shop is if either the ride is mediocre or the merchandise is mediocre. A good restaurant at a Disney theme park is a success if the food is good and the prices are relatively reasonable. It's great if the restaurant blends into the theme and gives guest a chance to try food they don't get normally, but that is an enchancement, it is not the formula to get park guests to eat there. Taste Pilot's Grill has some of the most minimal and basic theming imaginable and it's usually very crowded, not because park guests are dying to eat in a test pilot's restaurant from the 1930's, but because the burgers are the best in either park. Finally, most importantly, just because something worked well, maybe even exceeded your wildest dreams, that DOES NOT MEAN that if you copy what you did for the next thing that it is going to be successful. Cars Land (so far) has been wildly successful. That doesn't mean that if you build another Pixar themed land with one big E-ticket ride, two smaller C-ticket rides, one restaurant, however many merch locations, and walk around characters, that it will be just as successful. The next thing will be successful if it is the same QUALITY as RSR or Flo's Diner or the Cozy Cone Motel or merchandise that people actually want to buy because the product is so good. It really is that simple.
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  11. #71

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
    Six Flags Magic Mountain was a better park when it didn't even have Looney Tunes characters or DC Comics characters, and TROLLS roamed the park and you could ride a monorail or a railroad. When Samurai Summit and Ninja went in, I would say it was a really refreshing place.
    So why do you think they added the characters if it was a better park without them? Even Knott's, which for awhile was seen as an equal to Disneyland, eventually slipped and ended up licensing a character franchise. Why would they have done that unless they figured out what Disney knew all along.

  12. #72

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
    Six Flags Magic Mountain was a better park when it didn't even have Looney Tunes characters or DC Comics characters, and TROLLS roamed the park and you could ride a monorail or a railroad. When Samurai Summit and Ninja went in, I would say it was a really refreshing place.
    Arguing that quality is what matters isn't some shattering revelation though. Of course quality is of huge importance. As Big D points out, there is no formula. I do like my Splash Mountain/Grizzly comparison though, because Splash has a magic that Grizzly doesn't, despite both being quality rides.

    Carsland is a great case study too. Mater's is a quality ride, but the theme is what Disney is good at and it pluses the ride in an intangible way. If the ride were Frontierland and themed as a covered wagon ride, it would still be popular because of the overarching theme of the land. Conversely, Luigi's is not a quality ride, and the character theme doesn't save it, nor does the overarching theme of Carsland. Whether the ride is a flying saucer theme or a flying tire theme, it just doesn't work because it is not a good ride.

    While Grizzly River Run is quality and its popular, I have no interest in riding it because, to me, it's just another rapids ride. But when I think of Mater's and Splash Mountain, I don't think of it as just another _____ ride.

    It's hard to talk about it because there is no formula, but I do think that theme an characters can make a difference on top of quality.

  13. #73

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    So why do you think they added the characters if it was a better park without them? Even Knott's, which for awhile was seen as an equal to Disneyland, eventually slipped and ended up licensing a character franchise. Why would they have done that unless they figured out what Disney knew all along.
    I think they were just copying Disney. I don't know ANY kids who feel the same excitement at seeing Looney Tunes at Six Flags or Snoopy at Knott's as they do seeing authentic Disney characters at the Disney theme parks.

    As for Universal, personally I preferred the old Frankenstein in a monster mask to seeing a Shrek walk-around.

  14. #74

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice


  15. #75

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    Re: MiceAge Update, Mermaid and Alice

    I don't want to jump into this argument you guys are having but I will say that it's awesome that the Fantasyland dark rides are getting upgrades instead of being gutted out and replaced with meet and greets like at WDW.

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